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William P
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 Posted: Thu 21 Nov, 2013 8:24 am Post subject: when does a spear become a pike? |
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i know this might sound llike a silly question, but sometimes it seems a little arbitrary, is there a roughly official designation regarding the point a spear becomes a pike?
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Thu 21 Nov, 2013 8:57 am Post subject: |
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Historically, "pike" meant both the very long - typically 18ft - infantry staff weapon, the soldiers carrying this weapon, and just a point. You can see the latter definition in Joseph Swetnam's statement give odds to "a Staffe with a Pike" odds over other staff weapons.
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Thu 21 Nov, 2013 11:28 am Post subject: |
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My own arbitrary definition is that a spear can be used with one hand (or both!), but a pike can only be used 2-handed. There's still some gray area and wiggle room there, though!
Matthew
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Ben Coomer
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| Posted: Thu 21 Nov, 2013 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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If you're handing out one, its a spear.
If you're handing out thirty, its a pike... 
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Dan P
Location: Massachusetts, USA Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Thu 21 Nov, 2013 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Are you standing in a tight formation?
Are you standing in a tight formation all the time?
Does it not matter to you that your polearm is too long to swing, bash, or cut with because you are always in a tight formation with no room to do those things anyway?
Then its a pike.
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Mark Moore
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| Posted: Thu 21 Nov, 2013 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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Correct me it I'm wrong, but it's always been my understanding that a pike formation was primarily anti-cavalry. A spear, it seems, especially a fairly short one, would be closer to a single-combat weapon. I guess a pike formation could do against unmounted troops, but a quick swat aside and they would just be wading through a bunch of long sticks. Then, the pikemen would have to throw down and arm themselves with other weapons for close range combat. That's my thinking anyway. Once again, correct me if I'm wrong.  ................McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Mark Moore
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| Posted: Thu 21 Nov, 2013 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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Forgot to add.....If I were to be one of those pikemen that had to throw down, my long-bladed hewing spear would be a fine backup. At barely six feet, it's a very maneuverable weapon....and very fast.  ............McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Fri 22 Nov, 2013 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Moore wrote: | | Correct me it I'm wrong, but it's always been my understanding that a pike formation was primarily anti-cavalry. A spear, it seems, especially a fairly short one, would be closer to a single-combat weapon. I guess a pike formation could do against unmounted troops, but a quick swat aside and they would just be wading through a bunch of long sticks. Then, the pikemen would have to throw down and arm themselves with other weapons for close range combat. That's my thinking anyway. Once again, correct me if I'm wrong. ................McM |
Well, Swiss pikes prove you wrong. Swiss pikemen were best at defeating other infantry. Since not only the first rank has pikes lowered, it's not only one wall of pike heads you must pass but several before you come near the first pikeman. Hellenistic pikemen were also highly successful against most other infantries...
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Dan P
Location: Massachusetts, USA Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Fri 22 Nov, 2013 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Moore wrote: | | Correct me it I'm wrong, but it's always been my understanding that a pike formation was primarily anti-cavalry. A spear, it seems, especially a fairly short one, would be closer to a single-combat weapon. I guess a pike formation could do against unmounted troops, but a quick swat aside and they would just be wading through a bunch of long sticks. Then, the pikemen would have to throw down and arm themselves with other weapons for close range combat. That's my thinking anyway. Once again, correct me if I'm wrong. ................McM |
With the formation, its not about passing the guard of one point, but many. And a pike formation is many ranks deep, so it's less a thin pointy line to break through and more like an interlocking murder hedge. Individual warriors charging a line like that on foot have no chance. Disciplined groups of infantry could attempt a charge but deflecting pike points could mean they tend to hit the next man over or one rank behind, who is probably trying to pass his own points. I think historically infantry victories against pikes have been achieved by flanking, when the pikemen did not have proper support from skirmishers, or when terrain forced a pike unit to lose formation.
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Mark Moore
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| Posted: Fri 22 Nov, 2013 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, gentlemen. I stand corrected and better educated!  ........McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Ralph Grinly
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| Posted: Sat 23 Nov, 2013 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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My, admittedly very rough, distinction is that a Pike is just a long spear, used in a co-ordinated manner by a block of troops. Spears are used by individual warriors - Pike's are used by formations of soldiers. The distinction lies not in the actual size, per se, but in how it's used
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Sun 24 Nov, 2013 4:00 am Post subject: |
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Well, masters taught individuals how to use a pike in single combat, so that is not the difference.
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William P
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| Posted: Sun 24 Nov, 2013 4:27 am Post subject: |
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whats the limit you can use a spear one handed in terms of length? hoplie dory could be 2.4m to almost 3.5m sometimes i heard
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Sun 24 Nov, 2013 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: | | whats the limit you can use a spear one handed in terms of length? hoplie dory could be 2.4m to almost 3.5m sometimes i heard |
This whole dicussion seems rather arbitary but I would guess probably past 12 feet, past the limit you could control and manuever the weapon at all angle single handed with aid of tucking another portion under the arm.
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Mon 25 Nov, 2013 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Ralph Grinly wrote: | | My, admittedly very rough, distinction is that a Pike is just a long spear, used in a co-ordinated manner by a block of troops. Spears are used by individual warriors - Pike's are used by formations of soldiers. The distinction lies not in the actual size, per se, but in how it's used |
Spears were certainly used by formations of soldiers, for thousands of years! Greek hoplites spring to mind, plus Roman legionaries and auxiliaries of various eras, other ancient-era cultures, and most of Europe in the middle ages! Just to name a few.
Some of those folks used pikes as well, or instead, depending on when you're talking about.
Matthew
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Glen A Cleeton
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This is a standard topic