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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 626
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 Posted: Thu 14 Nov, 2013 4:22 pm Post subject: Musée de l'Armée J4 reproduction? |
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Has anyone ever reproduced the sword from the Musée de l'Armée with the accession number J4?
This sword is mentioned on page 230 of Oakeshott's Records and in more detail on 142 in Peirce's Swords of the Viking Age
It is a type X dating probably to the early 12th century. The blade is especially broad for it's length, which makes the grip seem almost short, I find the overall effect rather striking. The grip itself is wood, wrapped in silver wire, with silver bands/ferrules and each end. Oakeshott says that despite it's size (and weight), it is well balanced.
Peirce has the more accurate dimensions I believe:
OAL: 85cm
BL: 72cm
LOC:19.9cm
LOG: 8cm
The blade width is about 3 inches at the hilt. Oakeshott gives the weight as about 3 3/4lbs, he says the blade is very thin and well balanced.
Does anyone know if a reproduction of this sword has ever been made? I am very tempted myself to find someone who would be willing to make a copy.
I've attached some pictures that Manouchehr Korasani was kind enough to upload to myArmoury from his visit to the Musée de l'Armée. There are more detailed photographs in Peirce's book, but I'm sure they are copyrighted.
 Attachment: 55.45 KB
Attachment: 131.64 KB
Attachment: 100.66 KB
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
Last edited by Ian Hutchison on Thu 14 Nov, 2013 5:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Tim Lison
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| Posted: Thu 14 Nov, 2013 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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I've always loved that sword and hope you do get it made and post lots of pics!
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Mark Moore
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| Posted: Thu 14 Nov, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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This is the first I've seen of this sword. Damn, what a blade!...............McM
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D. Bell
Location: New Zealand Joined: 01 May 2004
Posts: 73
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| Posted: Fri 15 Nov, 2013 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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It is on my wishlist, but I have not seen a reproduction of it.
An armed society is a polite society.
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Matt Corbin
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| Posted: Fri 15 Nov, 2013 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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I think Michael Pikula did one that was similar to this a few years back. Though I don't think it was an exact reproduction.
“This was the age of heroes, some legendary, some historical . . . the misty borderland of history where fact and legend mingle.”
- R. Ewart Oakeshott
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Tim Lison
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| Posted: Fri 15 Nov, 2013 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Matt Corbin wrote: | | I think Michael Pikula did one that was similar to this a few years back. Though I don't think it was an exact reproduction. |
He did a very broad bladed type XIII a few years ago. I'll bet that's the one you're thinking of. It was different but reminded me of this blade too.
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Márk György Kis
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| Posted: Mon 18 Nov, 2013 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Holy moly!
I will order this sword from my friend soon, it seems so cool.
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Ken Speed
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| Posted: Mon 18 Nov, 2013 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I've seen pictures of that sword and it appears in SWORDS OF THE VIKING AGE by Ian Peirce. I've always wondered how it wound feel and handle it's so very different than any other swords of that time that I know about.
I also can't help but wonder how it came to be. Did some swordsman ask a smith to make a sword to a sketch of a model or bib a smith"invent" this sword himself? This, of course, is an almost impossible question to answer but is the one I always wonder about when I see this sword.
I doubt that this sword would have enough general market appeal to ever be mass produced but I have to admit I would be very curious to get the feel of a replica if one was ever available.
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Mon 18 Nov, 2013 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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My hunch is that it was the early equivalent of a parade sword. That is, it was a sword for display, and not actual use.... This is just my own personal speculation, mostly based on the oddness of the blade and the silver wire wrap and silver ferrules.
No way of knowing, just my theory...
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 626
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| Posted: Mon 18 Nov, 2013 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Robin Smith wrote: | My hunch is that it was the early equivalent of a parade sword. That is, it was a sword for display, and not actual use.... This is just my own personal speculation, mostly based on the oddness of the blade and the silver wire wrap and silver ferrules.
No way of knowing, just my theory... |
Hey Robin,
I've thought that it might have been a ceremonial piece as well, but what is odd if that were the case, is the effort that went in to making it balanced. For example, it supposedly has an acute distal taper, with the metal being quite thin at the point, as well as a very generous fuller. If it wasn't meant to be swung, why bother balancing it or refining the blade profile?
EDIT: Just re-read Peirce's description. He also says the blade has well-defined cutting edges with 'evidence of much use'.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps a re-hilted, older blade?
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 7:33 am Post subject: |
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I can't imagine that there would be much mass market appeal for such a piece but it would be interesting to know how a reproduction handled. I also wonder about it being a presentation or bearng sword. Typically those are a bit more impressive in terms of visual impact.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 7:57 am Post subject: |
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I believe this sword handles well. It's short and wide blade combined with shortness and dramatic distal taper might very well make it very fast...
And I doubt it is 3.75lb. Oakeshott gave the wrong dimensions, perhaps wrong weight too...
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 626
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| Posted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | Perhaps a re-hilted, older blade? |
It is possible, Oakshott had heard that the grip had been replaced, but he felt the current grip was 'ancient'.
| Luka Borscak wrote: | I believe this sword handles well. It's short and wide blade combined with shortness and dramatic distal taper might very well make it very fast...
And I doubt it is 3.75lb. Oakeshott gave the wrong dimensions, perhaps wrong weight too... |
I've also wondered about that. I believe when Oakshott included it in Records he was working from memory and sketches he drew. He got the dimensions wrong as a result (he recalled it was much larger than it actually is), I wonder if it is possible that he 'estimated' the weight and was off. I wish Peirce had been able to weigh it when he collected his, more accurate, measurements.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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J.D. Crawford
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| Posted: Tue 19 Nov, 2013 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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This sword in the Arma Bohemia catalog looks like it might have been inspired by the same sword. Or maybe by Oakeshott's oversized rendition (I don't know le Duc's book cited below):
http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/epees/mec6_v.jpg
Description:
copy of a broad 1-hand sword,
France, 2nd half XII th century.
length: 95 cm, blade very broad (8cm), sharp
described in Viollet le Duc´s ENCYCLOPÉDIE MÉDIÉVALE
smaller version
length: 90 cm, blade broad 5cm.
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