[Stanley Hauser]

I've been researching mail for quite some time now and thought I would compile a list of facts that people who are particularly knowledgeable on mail could verify. I'm imagining it as a sort of quick reference guide for future enthusiasts who are interested in producing something typical of the time. Of course, I understand that "typical" may be hard to pin down for something as widely used as mail, but at the same time I feel that some features were common enough to be worthy on mention. Please be brutally honest with any corrections.

-Mail of this period was typically demi-riveted.

-Typically, round sectioned rings were used with ONLY a flattened overlap, but sometimes the whole ring was slightly flattened overall.

-European mail had rivets that were flush at the back (against the body) with the rivet head at the front, while Middle Eastern mail typically had a rivet head on the front and back

-Solid rings were typically, or almost always, punched from sheet

-Solid rings typically had a square cross section

Additionally, I have read that the back of pin-riveted mail had a convex shape. How common was this practice, and is there any particular reason for it? Would it have been done intentionally, or was it simply an artifact of the riveting process?

[Ahmad Tabari]

I don't know if I would call myself "particularly knowledgeable" on mail but from my research I would say points 1, 2, and 5 are correct. As for your third point, I would point out that most of the Eastern mail we have no is from the 15th century onwards so whether or not the same riveting style was used in the Middle ages is uncertain. Also I would avoid using the term "Eastern" as it could refer to a massive geographical area with significant regional varieties.

As for the solid rings, I would say that virtually all of them were punched from plate. There are examples of welded rings but those are not from the Medieval period as far as I remember.

I hope this helps.

[Dan Howard]

I don't think we have enough examples of 11th century mail to make any generalisations about the period.

[Stanley Hauser]

It absolutely helps, thanks so much.

I'm make the appropriate edits.

I suppose the welded links may have been more Viking-era then.

[Stanley Hauser]

[Foong Chen Hong]

Seeing this thread was made, how about 13th century?

Do the Western Europe use flattened rings with wedge rivets? How big would they are?

[S. Sebok]

Heres an example of Erik Schmid's 12th century Northern European maille. I saved it before his site was hacked. Notice the flat inside and the punched rings.

[Stanley Hauser]

[Erik D. Schmid]

Let me take a stab at this Stanley.

-Mail of this period was typically demi-riveted. Correct.

-Typically, round sectioned rings were used with ONLY a flattened overlap, but sometimes the whole ring was slightly flattened overall. Correct.

-European mail had rivets that were flush at the back (against the body) with the rivet head at the front, while Middle Eastern mail typically had a rivet head on the front and back Not necessarily. Typically most mail had a more or less flush backside. There are variations to be found, but the majority do seem to be smooth. A little further back in time than you're asking about, but there are Roman examples with a rivet head on both sides.

-Solid rings were typically, or almost always, punched from sheet This does seem to be the case.

-Solid rings typically had a square cross section More or less. As has been stated, there are examples of round section solid links. How common they were is anyone's guess.

Dan is quite correct in that there are not enough known pieces of 11th century European mail with which to draw any concrete conclusions as to how common a specific feature was.

With regards to my links, the convex shape is created during the rivet setting process. This is a common feature on quite a few mail items regardless of national origin.

[Stanley Hauser]

Ok! Thanks for the clarification Erik. I take it that the convex back section added to the strength of the peening. So, here is the updated list, with a new feature I thought of...

-Mail of this period was typically demi-riveted.

-Typically, round sectioned rings were used with ONLY a flattened overlap, but sometimes the whole ring was slightly flattened overall.

-To quote Erik; "Typically most mail had a more or less flush backside. There are variations to be found, but the majority do seem to be smooth." (Perhaps only a few extant examples from this period have a convex shape?)

-Solid rings were typically, or almost always, punched from sheet.

-Solid rings typically had a square cross section, but there are some examples of round cross sections as well. (Were these perhaps made by wear, grinding, or drop forging?)

-(NEW) Links from this period were more often "D" shaped, as opposed to circular.

Thought I'd throw in some typical features of mail from the mid 13th century and on...

-Mail of this period used wedge rivets in place of the earlier pin or round rivet.

-Mail of this period was typically flattened all around, with the overlap often being even flatter.

-While mail of this period was sometimes demi-riveted, guilds standardized the process of using 100% riveted links.

-Much of this mail was made in Southern Germany and exported to the rest of Europe

-Mail of this period had a feature known as the "watershed" which served the purpose of peening the rivet more securely

-Examples exist of case-hardened and tempered mail from this period

Well, that's what I have so far. Feel free to add more or make appropriate corrections. Thanks guys.

[Mart Shearer]

[Stanley Hauser]

Excellent. Let me play with the wording a bit then...

Mail from about 800 to about 1100

The following are features present in extant examples and may or may not be typical of all mail at the time.

-Mail of this period was typically demi-riveted.

-Typically, round sectioned rings were used with ONLY a flattened overlap, but sometimes the whole ring was slightly flattened overall.

-To quote Erik; "Typically most mail had a more or less flush backside. There are variations to be found, but the majority do seem to be smooth." (Perhaps only a few extant examples from this period have a convex shape?)

-Solid rings were typically, or almost always, punched from sheet.

-Solid rings typically had a square cross section, but there are some examples of round cross sections as well. (Were these perhaps made by wear, grinding, or drop forging?)

-Extant examples of riveted links include both round and "D" shaped links

Mail from about the mid 13th to mid 14th century and later

Mail made a transition over time into a style which exhibited the following features. Again, the following are features present in extant examples and may or may not be typical of all mail at the time.

-Mail of this period used wedge rivets in place of the earlier pin or round rivet.

-Mail of this period was typically flattened all around, with the overlap often being even flatter.

-While mail of this period was sometimes demi-riveted, guilds standardized the process of using 100% riveted links.

-Much of this mail was made in Southern Germany and exported to the rest of Europe, though it was not made exclusively in Germany

-Mail of this period typically had a feature known as the "watershed" which served the purpose of peening the rivet more securely

-Examples exist of case-hardened and tempered mail from this period.

How's this?

[Jean Henri Chandler]

Do you have any information on the armor-making guilds in southern Germany at this time? What towns? Augsburg?

J

[Stanley Hauser]

[Mart Shearer]

[Mart Shearer]

Thought I would block copy one of my posts from a thread on Armour Archive which shows some of the difficulty of defining "typical" for a given time.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=164379


S.U. Kainov, trans. Dmitry V. Ryaboy, Medieval Russian Armour workshop in Gomiy
Likely dated to the destruction from the Mongol Invasion of 1239:

[Dan Howard]

Mart's right. There is just too much variability to make any kind of generalisation about mail from any time period.

[Mart Shearer]

I like abstraction and generality a lot more than Dan.

I think some generalities can be made, understanding that there are always exceptions to the rule. For example, we can generally say that Roman era mail is constructed of alternating rows of riveted and solid rings. We can say that 15th century German mail is generally of all riveted construction. We can say that Indian patterned mail of copper, brass, and iron rings generally is constructed of butted rings. We can say that most European mail is woven in the 4:1 pattern.

The 14th century seems to be a time of great transition in armor, including mail. Of course, making generalizations with limited evidence usually leads to revisions later.

[Dan Howard]

I don't like them but I've used them plenty of times. When writing GURPS Low-Tech everything had to be generalised and abstracted so some simpler ways to model them could be developed.

[Stanley Hauser]

So perhaps instead of saying "typically" all we can really say in "existing examples include..."

Is there perhaps a list somewhere of existing examples of mail in museums?