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Sven P




Location: Newyork
Joined: 15 Jun 2013

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Kettle helm with face plate, help!         Reply with quote

I would really like to add a face plate to a thirteenth century kettle helm. The design seems to make sense, and they had the technology. I just can't find any examples of it. I am wondering how much creative licence I am willing to take.
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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you search for experimental helmets of WW 1 you'll find what you're asking about.
Not sure of medieval examples, though.

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Arek Przybylok




Location: Upper Silesia
Joined: 16 Jan 2007

Posts: 111

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/codex-justini...s339/3953/
Maybe something like this?

http://diebgasse.blogspot.com/
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Sven P




Location: Newyork
Joined: 15 Jun 2013

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: thanks!         Reply with quote

That might be just what I was looking for. Do you know anything about this picture? Date, origin, etc?
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,281

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep, 2013 4:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Source information is on the linked page. I'm not certain that's a face mask instead of a mail coif. It could also be a cloth hat instead of an iron war-hat. Marginalia in manuscripts are often hybrids, zoomorphs, etc., so another example would be better for substantiation. I think a visor would negate many of the benefits of wearing a kettle hat.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui


Last edited by Mart Shearer on Tue 24 Sep, 2013 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sven P




Location: Newyork
Joined: 15 Jun 2013

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have seen depictions of cavalry wearing kettle hats, so face protection would be prudent.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,281

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What element of the linked marginalia makes you think it represents a horseman? Most of the figures in the same manuscript seem more likely to be urban militia.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=3939

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Sven P




Location: Newyork
Joined: 15 Jun 2013

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep, 2013 5:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

it wasn't in this manuscript, but there are numerous depictions of fully maille armored cavalry with kettle helms. Especially in the Crusader's bible.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,281

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Your question wasn't whether cavalry wore kettle hats. Your question was whether kettle hats ever had visors in the 13th century. The one example provided might be more reasonably interpreted as a mail coif with nasal protection worn beneath a kettle hat used by a Bolognese urban militia-man.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Sven P




Location: Newyork
Joined: 15 Jun 2013

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep, 2013 5:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know, I am just justifying why a plate defense might have been used over the face
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,281

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep, 2013 7:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, as noted on your other thread...

Robin Smith wrote:
Sounds to me like you've already decided what you're gonna do, and are looking for support...

...Seems like the wrong way to go about it to me. Start with the sources, then draw a conclusion, not start with a conclusion then go looking for sources.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Henrik Granlid




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Apr 2012

Posts: 103

PostPosted: Fri 27 Sep, 2013 1:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The images of cavalry in kettle helms do not support your theory of faceplates, they weren't there. The simple reason is that if you wanted a faceplate in the 13th, you wore either a nasal with a full coif, or you wore a sugarloaf or greathelm. With there already being three other options, one would not go about unbalancing a kettle in favour of a faceplate.

The early greathelms were just a faceplate with no brim.
The WWI experimentals weren't used because they were too bulky and very imbalanced.

If you want as much faceguard as possible, pick the sort of kettle that extends more downward than outward, having slits in the brim for eyesight. You can then weld bar-grills to the bottom part of it and cover them in an aventail (also works for the more open kettles) or you can weld/bolt an early bevoir to it (they look like w massive plow/wedge and sits from your chest all the way up to your nose).

The last option is probably your best for a face-plate look, where the first option (bar grills) is a helluva lot easier to fight in (I am assuming you want it for SCA or HMB).
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