[Reece Nelson]

Hello all,

Recently I've been putting together ideas for creating an Hoplite kit, but would like to create one in the style of a Athenian nobleman. I'm familiar with the armor, but I am lost when it comes to the rest of the kit

From what little research I can find, it seems the Athenians wore blue, rather then red, like the Spartans.I know Spartans were famed for wearing red cloaks, so that they would hide if they were to be bleeding.

So, what could I do to give the appearance of an Athenian nobleman? Below are a few images of what I have found that I like so far.


Also, if anyone knows of craftsman that work in bronze and could post some links, that would be awesome I've spent a good deal online and I can't find a single craftsman that makes the armor or weapons.

Thanks in advance!
-Reece

[Michal Plezia]

Maybe Jeffrey Hildebrandt? He makes outstanding bronze armour.

Check this thread:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=28063

Weapons made by Neil Burridge have good opinion on the internet.
http://www.bronze-age-swords.com/intro.htm

[Jeffrey Hildebrandt]

[David Lewis Smith]

Run, dont walk Run to thearmourarchive.org

its like this one only for armour. Mostly the SCA crowd but good armourers none the less

[Dan Howard]

[Reece Nelson]

[Dan Howard]

Classical Greece is about five hundred years after the end of the Bronze Age.

Edit: Jeffrey's already given you the link to Matt's hoplite page. Start there.

[Matthew Amt]

Ack, I'm still working on updates!! Well, it's a decent start anyway, thanks for the plugs, guys.

You can hardly go wrong with the armorers mentioned. There is some Greek kit being mass-produced in India (Deepeeka, Daniyal, etc.), but that varies quite a bit in quality so I'm not sure what level you're looking for, here.

I hadn't heard about Athenians wearing blue before! The only color related to a specific city is the Spartans and their red (though apparently there is some debate about whether it was the cloak that was red, or the tunic, or clothing in general...). I've always been a bit skeptical about the idea of Spartans (of all people!) being dismayed by the sight of blood. In any case, you should have a wide range of colors from which to choose.

My page has links to hoplite groups as well as the FAR board and other information. But even if there aren't any other hoplites in your general area, keep at it! It's a very worthy era, as well as challenging.

Khaire!

Matthew

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/

[William P]

Actually i think i remember reading that the Athenians at Salamis were 'flying flags of blue and white' i think it was in the oxford history of ancient Greece.

[Luka Borscak]

[Reece Nelson]

I probably should have mentioned that I intend to train with this in the art of Pankration. So, it's needs to be historically correct for me and fit well. So the quality should be good.

I've looked through several venders and the only thing I saw that looked decent was Danyel Steel's corinthian helm (the one I posted above). The rest of the stuff I've found was off and was done in brass :/

I'd like to get it all done in Bronze if I could.

-Reece

[Matthew Amt]

Pankration was done unarmored, though, wasn't it? Like boxing. A historically accurate helmet will be wrecked after a couple bouts! It's only meant to fend off the spears that get past your shield. (And LOOK good, of course!)

Matthew

[Reece Nelson]

Primarily yes, but I want to study how they had fought on the battlefield. There are several techniques, like kicks that help against shields, etc. It's an all encompassing martial art and is used in conjunction with wrestling.

We have images that show most of the techniques through competitions, like the Olympic games. From what I understand of it, the people who couldn't afford the armour or weapons, used those techniques on the battlefield. Im no expert in it, as it's a revival martial art, just like HEMA, so no one really has the complete answers. A lot of it will be trying out the said techniques and do comparative tests Which will be fun for me lol.

-Reece

[Matthew Amt]

Sure, you can probably find references to unarmed combat moves done on the battlefield, though I suspect mostly in desperate situations like Thermopylae, but generally battles were fought with spears and shields. Men who were too poor to afford the minimum equipment were either issued kit by the state, or did not fight as hoplites. They could have been javelin-throwers or slingers or rock-chuckers, or rowers. But every city had a large number of men who simply were not eligible for military duty, either because of poverty or social status.

There is a relatively new book out on spear use and other hoplite combat details, called "A Storm of Spears" by Christopher Matthew. Well worth a read!

Matthew

[Ruel A. Macaraeg]

Reece,
I'm also working up a hoplite kit, though only planning to use off-the-shelf purchases to do it. So far, I've just gotten a helmet and sword, both of which need a little work. Here are my notes thus far; hope they're of some help. The museum photos might be of interest. http://www.forensicfashion.com/BC490GreekHoplite.html

[Dan Howard]

Lots of problems with the info on that site.

Seventy pounds is too high. Hoplites in bronze armour bore closer to 40 pounds in combat and significantly less when marching.

Hoplon means "gear" or "tool", not "armour". In a martial context it refers to the "tools of war" - weapons, shield, and armour - i.e. the entire panoply. The closest English translation would be something like "arms".

The Greeks usually called their shield an aspis, not a hoplon. I would dispute Snodgrass's claim that they were larger than earlier Greek shields.

This is bollocks: "The helmet ... was not expected to ward off all blows: strength was sacrificed for lightness and reasonable all-over protection". The plate on Greek helmets combined with the padding underneath was perfectly capable of stopping all but the heaviest direct hits.

I would dispute this: " the most successful sword design of the Ancient World was developed by the Greeks." Personally I think that the Naue II was the most successful sword design of the ancient world. The Naue II was certainly the most widespread and longest lasting. It was not developed in Greece; northern Italy is the most likely place of origin.

There is nothing to suggest that Greek armour was ever covered with leather or linen to prevent rusting. The only "composite construction" was the addition of metal scales to a cloth or leather foundation. Greek armour consisted of bronze or occasionally iron plate, bronze or iron scale, leather or rawhide, or layered linen (quilted, not glued)

[Ruel A. Macaraeg]

Thanks for your feedback Dan. Can you furnish me with some alternate sources so that I can incorporate them? I'm simply collating notes with these pages, and only making notations for errors when the weight of evidence becomes clear to me (as I did with Weapon 2006 p42, which contradicts the others quotes in the "Nudity" section).

As you've often heard me say, I prefer to make decisions based on evidence than by following acknowledged "experts," and virtually all of the quoted authors have been considered "experts" on arms and armor. The best way to do that is to get all the competing viewpoints together and let them fight it out, so to speak, without interference.

[Matthew Amt]

[Ruel A. Macaraeg]

[Sean Manning]