[Ed Schelzel]

Rather than veer the "mail aginst weapons" thread back onto falchions, I thought I'd better just put this here. In the Maciejowski Bible I see what appear to be falchions, but I've not seen modern replication equivalents with inverted crescent tops, etc. (but I really haven't looked that hard either).

These are falchions, right?

[Ed Schelzel]

Ok while I'm at it... what is this weapon? It looks like an oversized peasant 'hauswehre".

[Matt Corbin]

There's a few modern replicas out there:

http://kultofathena.com/s_results.asp?search=...mit=Search

[Matt Lentzner]

The large two handed knife has been referred to as a "warbrand". The weapon with the scalloped tip has been referred to as a "godenak" or simply a "chopper".

I don't see how these weapons would be functionally any different than a falchion or messer of equal size.

[Ian S LaSpina]

Some people do refer to them as early falchions, but I think most people affectionately know that weapon as a 'maciejowski chopper.' You can see one put to good use in the movie Ironclad.

As far as the giant glaive type weapon, a friend of mine had a reproduction of that made. He says for it's shear size, it surprisingly handles much like a sword. Here's his reproduction 'chopper' and 'glaive' with an Albion Knight in the middle for scale. As fearsome as that weapon appears, I don't think it will cleave mailled knights in twain though, although that would be impressive!

[James Moore]

(I've mentioned this guy before, so I fear I'll sound like some sort of fanboy/groupie if I ever have to mention his name again!)

I know that J.G. Elmslie is working on academic research on the subject of falchions, with intentions for a book, or paper somewhere like The Park Lane Arms Fair Catalogue, and is meant to be giving a presentation on the subject next week at a HEMA/WMA event in York, (The original one, in Yorkshire) called "Fechtschule York", with some kind of typology being proposed to the academic community.

( https://www.facebook.com/events/680353385324026 is the event page, if that's ok to link. )

From what I've heard him say on the subject, he's had discussions on the maciejowski chopper/cleaver/falchion/gondenak/things with the likes of Peter Johnsson, and has a pretty convincing argument that they're not falchions, but messer - in discussion, he used the term "proto-messer" to describe those, and the earlier examples he'd identified in the research. Hopefully we'll get copies of the study online afterwards.

[Ed Schelzel]

Hey thanks all, very illuminating!

[Marc Ritz]

the 'chopper' looks strangely familiar

Would they be handled the same?

[Christopher B Lellis]

[Christopher B Lellis]

As far as I know, the only reference to that glaive is that picture from the maciejowski bible. To my knowledge no actual weapon like that has been discovered. Doesn't mean it didn't exist though.

Falchions were common in Europe during the medieval ages, they seem to have been the poor mans sword, more like an axe that looks like a sword from what I hear.

[Corey Skriletz]

I had heard that the 'chopper', has also been speculated to be mace or club of some sort. However, I haven't heard that speculation in a while, so I don't know if that theory has been discarded or if it never really had any support at all.

[Ian S LaSpina]

[Mart Shearer]

A few other 13th century miniatures of note:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4266/8414/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4682/12384/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4441/13157/


David Nicolle cites a number of contemporary terms which might describe the two-handed versions mounted on short hafts, such as fauchard, faussart, or fauchon. The application of "godenak" or similar spellings of goedentag are almost certainly mis-attributed to any bladed weapon.

The square-tipped single-handed form is similar in shape to the 13th century table knife, but I don't know if that fact alone should make it a messer rather than a falchion. Some have umbrella handles, while others have typical cruciform guards and pommels.

[Chad Arnow]

see these existing threads for discussion/pics:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11401
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=20775
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=927

[David Lewis Smith]

These always remind me of cane knives. Basicly machetes for harvesting cane

[Ed Toton]

[Bennison N]

Those Maciejowski Bible "Choppers" are the number one most popular weapon in Historical Medieval Battle and the Battle of the Nations.

I'd say 80% of people use those as their sidearm there.

[Sean Flynt]

this is not my period of interest, so it has only now occurred to me that the "glaive" bears more than a passing resemblance to later kriegsmessers. Imagine a long cross with nagel on that thing. I'm not suggesting direct lineage, though, because I don't think I've seen any kriegsmessers in the interim period.

[Matt Lentzner]

I'm thinking the glaive/warbrand is part of a larger family of weapon types (two-handed single-edge cutting blades) that goes back to ancient times.

falx -> rhomphaia -> glaive/warbrand -> kriegsmesser

[Josh S]

Michael Pikula also made a prototype of the long-bladed "glaive/warbrand/oversized hauswehre" weapon. Apparently he intends to eventually make it in production runs. The prototype version is pretty different from what's in the manuscript, although still completely recognizable as such. I could have sworn there were some posts here on myArmoury about it, but I couldn't find them. It is on his Facebook page, though: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.399830930103240.96153.271965196223148&type=1