Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Internal diameter of shield bosses? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Jason O C





Joined: 20 Oct 2012

Posts: 114

PostPosted: Wed 03 Apr, 2013 3:29 am    Post subject: Internal diameter of shield bosses?         Reply with quote

On another thread Jeffrey Hildebrandt, of royal oak armoury, posted an image of a boss which he made. Not wishing to distract people from Jeffrey's work with questions, I thought that it would be best to start a new thread. Anyways, on the other thread, Jeffrey mentioned that viking age shield bosses, found in Ireland, ranged in internal diameter from 3 to 3.6 inches. Now I wouldn't say that I have particularly large hands, but I couldn't fit my hand into a boss of this size. Is there something I'm missing here, what do the rest of you guys think?

Jason
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 1,080

PostPosted: Wed 03 Apr, 2013 3:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that there's the shield's thickness between your hand and the boss. Your hand isn't supposed to fit inside the boss, in the first place.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
View user's profile Send private message
Jason O C





Joined: 20 Oct 2012

Posts: 114

PostPosted: Wed 03 Apr, 2013 4:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply Mikko. After re-reading my question I realise I made a mistake. I shouldn't have said that my hand wouldn't fit into a boss of this size, as of course only the tips of your knuckles actually go inside the boss. But, as far as I know the minimum internal diameter of a boss is determined by the length of the handgrip, which for me would be around 4.5 inches.

Jason
View user's profile Send private message
Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 605

PostPosted: Wed 03 Apr, 2013 8:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We certainly do have a few original swords, shield bosses etc that were obviously made for really big guys, so there is a good historical precedent for making grips much larger than the norm. For people with average-sized hands, 8-9 cm is more than enough room, so it is not surprising that both sword grips and bosses are usually within or close to this size range. 3" is about 7.5cm, so that is indeed pretty small. The boss diameter (minus flange) can be a good bit smaller than the full length of the handgrip, with the hole in the board tapering towards the front. Also, the holes in shield boards are sometimes rectangular rather than circular. So depending on board thickness and details of construction there can be a good bit of wriggle room. I do reenactment combat in which we are required to wear fairly bulky padded leather gloves. My experience has been that a 10cm diameter boss is plenty large enough to accomodate even the biggest guys with the bulkiest gloves, and that the limiting factor is usually the shape of the hole in the board rather than the boss itself. I think I could just barely make a 7.5cm boss work for myself without gloves, but about 8.5-9 cm is ideal for me. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 1,080

PostPosted: Wed 03 Apr, 2013 9:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason O C wrote:
Thanks for the reply Mikko. After re-reading my question I realise I made a mistake. I shouldn't have said that my hand wouldn't fit into a boss of this size, as of course only the tips of your knuckles actually go inside the boss. But, as far as I know the minimum internal diameter of a boss is determined by the length of the handgrip, which for me would be around 4.5 inches.

Jason

Like Scott says, AFAIK the hand holes usually tapered towards the boss, ie. they were wider on your side of the shield (where they had to accommodate your hand) than on the face (where they only had to allow room for your knuckles). Why were they done this way? Personally I think it was because it makes for a marginally sturdier construction and, likely more importantly, provides better protection for the hand.

PS. You've got pretty huge hands. Happy

"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,636

PostPosted: Wed 03 Apr, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Shield bosses in the Aegean are smaller than I would have expected. The Kaloriziki shield boss has a diameter of 6-7cm and the Kallithea one is 4-5cm.
View user's profile Send private message
Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

Posts: 484

PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr, 2013 6:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It says here http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/....html#Boss 15cm including flange. The bosses on Figure 3 look bigger than 3.5".
View user's profile Send private message
Jeffrey Hildebrandt
Industry Professional



Location: Canada
Joined: 04 Jan 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 163

PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr, 2013 8:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
It says here http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/....html#Boss 15cm including flange. The bosses on Figure 3 look bigger than 3.5".


That article offers a good overview; I will have to hunt down some of the works it cites. It is a shame that "~15 cm diameter including flange" is the only measurement given for a half-dozen boss types, though.

The measurements I cited from Harrington were of conical Viking bosses in an Irish context in the 9th C - definitely not a generalization of shield bosses or even Viking bosses. The Irish Viking finds are characterized by their small size, and are assumed to have been influenced by the native Irish bosses, which are also small.

An interesting topic!

-Hildebrandt

Royal Oak Armoury Website
Royal Oak Armoury Facebook
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Viktor Abrahamson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 74

PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr, 2013 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some pictures of shieldbosses including some measurement.
These are viking age shieldbosses found in Sweden.
Might be of some help.


This one from Vendel. (Not Vendel-time but the location)


Vendel


Grödinge, Södermanland


Sollerön, Dalarna

/Viktor
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 605

PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, some of those Swedish bosses are quite large. Thank you very much Viktor, that is certainly very helpful to me.

Jeffrey, it is very interesting to me that Irish bosses tend to be at the smaller end of the range. I wonder if this was due to differences in the construction of the shields? I suppose unless we find some more and better-preserved whole shields, we may never know. I have heard references to shields from Ireland and the Isle of Man in the Viking age being different from continental and Scandinavian shields, but have been unable to dig up any information on exactly what those differences might be. A very interesting topic indeed!

Mikko, in addition to adding structural integrity, perhaps it was also because it is easier to chisel a hole in a board working at an angle rather than at 90 degrees? I'll see if I can find any pics that show a good close-up of boss-holes in preserved shield-boards.
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 1,080

PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Woodruff wrote:
Mikko, in addition to adding structural integrity, perhaps it was also because it is easier to chisel a hole in a board working at an angle rather than at 90 degrees? I'll see if I can find any pics that show a good close-up of boss-holes in preserved shield-boards.

Based on my one experience trying to make such a shield, I would have to agree. Happy

"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
View user's profile Send private message
Jeffrey Hildebrandt
Industry Professional



Location: Canada
Joined: 04 Jan 2012
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 163

PostPosted: Fri 05 Apr, 2013 5:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the scaled images of Swedish finds, Viktor; all I can seem to find is data for British finds, so they provide a useful Scandinavian parallel.

I have found that Viking Antiquities in Great Britain and Ireland, edited by Haakon Shetelig, 1940, sheds some light on our question of boss dimensions. I have uploaded all three volumes to 4shared, for anyone who would like to read them:

Volume 1
Volume 2
Volume 3

-Hildebrandt

Royal Oak Armoury Website
Royal Oak Armoury Facebook
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

Posts: 484

PostPosted: Tue 16 Aug, 2022 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

shield-bosses/" target="_blank">https://sagy.vikingove.cz/en/dimensions-of-continental-and-scandinavian-shield-bosses/
View user's profile Send private message
Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

Posts: 484

PostPosted: Tue 16 Aug, 2022 9:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm having trouble posting this link for some reason. It's worth a look. Click on Articles and scroll down.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Internal diameter of shield bosses?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum