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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2012 1:50 pm    Post subject: Padded aventail         Reply with quote

I have seen that in tha late 14th century there were paddaed aventails in bascinets under tha mail one.
http://www.man.poznan.pl/~ritter/tmp/mediewal...pMocny.jpg
But whed did it made the firse appareance?
And how were they fixed? Were they solidal with the padded inlay of the helm or they were a separate piece?

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Jason O C





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PostPosted: Fri 23 Nov, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi everyone. While searching this site for the answer to my question, I noticed that it had already been asked before. So in the hope that this thread just went unnoticed the first time around I would like ask it again, and this time hopefully someone with an answer will see this and help both myself and Augusto out. Thanks in advance.

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Ian S LaSpina




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Nov, 2012 4:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For what it's worth, in my most un-scholarly opinion, having worn bascinets with maille aventails, they make terrible protection for your neck and upper shoulders without padding. In fact, sewing a linen padded aventail to affix underneath my maille aventail is my next project. Without the padding, your neck would be very susceptible to impact, which as we all know, necks don't provide good impact absorption on their own. With no padding, maille alone on your neck might only protect against glancing slashes. A solid cut or thrust could still break your neck, crush your throat, etc..

In the reproduction world I've seen aventail padding as stand alone as well as integrated in to the linen helmet liner. In use, these would both be replaceable parts of a helmet. Maille would rough up the padding with normal use, so an easily removable padding setup might be easiest to deal with.

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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Nov, 2012 12:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian, although I agree with you that having no padding under the mail around your neck is a bad idea, weren't there often padded collars, either as part of the aketon or as a stand alone pieces, and with an aketon on beneath the torso armour (whether that be mail, or plate, or both) would another layer of padding around the upper chest and shoulders be needed? Btw I'm not saying that the padded aventail didn't exist, I'm just wondering if an aketon with a padded collar couldn't do the same job. In regards to whether a padded aventail would be better made as part of the helmet liner, or as a stand alone piece, my only thought about this is that the type made as part of the helmet liner would restrict side to side movement of the head, but having never worn one of these I could be way wrong, and perhaps someone whose has could tell you if this is the case.
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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Nov, 2012 4:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen a padded collar is not the same as a padded aventail.
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James Anderson III




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Nov, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Generally speaking, mail is poor protection without good padding underneath. The few that I have seen, the padding is a fully padded coif with extended aventail padding. I don't remember the time period off the top of my head, it's been years since I saw it.
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Jason O C





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PostPosted: Sat 24 Nov, 2012 5:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys for the replies. I did a bit more searching and found a site called Armour Archive, in which this topic has been discussed many times. Anyway it seems the consensus is that padding was used underneath the aventail of a bascinet, but it is unclear whether it was made as one piece with the helmet liner or as a separate piece.

If the padding was all one piece then I imagine that it would look something like this http;//mailmaker.tripod.com/paddedcoif/paddedcoif.html

Who knows perhaps a padded coif (as in the above link) was un-attached, and simply put on before the helm. This would have the advantage of making cleaning the interior of the helm easier.

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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 8:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The padded coif that Jason linked to has me curious. Is there any evidence for something like this historically? I've often seen things like this in movies (kingdom of heaven for example), but I've never seen them in any illuminated manuscripts or other historical artworks. I have seen padded collars and arming caps which serve the same purpose, but never a singular piece like this which protects the entire head, neck, and throat. So did they exist or it this another hollywood mistake?
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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 12:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One thing, I was thinking of lately is the attachment of the aventail itself.
Most pieces are detachable by a string. What is the reason, only cleaning issues? Maybe it has to do with the way they were worn. You could make it better fitting when attaching the aventail to the helmet after putting it on.

First lay the aventail around your neck, then put on the helmet and attach the aventail to it. By this method you could use a really close fitting aventail.
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix, you might be on to something here. If you look at these images you'll see a man put on his aventail before his bascinet.

www.manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscri...eve-ms1130

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Daniel Granath





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PostPosted: Thu 21 Mar, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Could it be something like these?
http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/2_Detaily/01_Doplnky/II_01_100.htm
http://bilddatenbank.khm.at/viewArtefact?id=373578
http://bilddatenbank.khm.at/viewArtefact?id=373580
http://bilddatenbank.khm.at/viewArtefact?id=373465
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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Mar, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not exacly. Those are internal padding for jousting helms, like the frog-mouth ones.
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Mar, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
Felix, you might be on to something here. If you look at these images you'll see a man put on his aventail before his bascinet.

www.manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscri...eve-ms1130


That's a maille standard.

I think trying to put on a true aventail separate from the helmet and then attaching them once in place is incredibly impractical. I have a pretty close fitting aventail and created integral padding for it and it's not hard to put on or take off.

From a purely practical standpoint, I just built a quilted aventail from linen and batting, and sewed the maille edge to the edge of the padding. The aventail padding then attaches to the helmet liner (if I didn't already have a liner I would have made this all one piece). I tailored the maille as best I could to get a close fit. This is just how I approached the problem from a modern standpoint, and this is the result:




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PostPosted: Thu 21 Mar, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for adding those links Daniel. Augusto this piece may have been made for a jousting helm, but perhaps it could be considered as a proof of concept for single piece padded coif, like the one that Jason linked to above. Ian, your probably right about the mail standard, and great job on the aventail.
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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Fri 22 Mar, 2013 7:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian S LaSpina wrote:
Stephen Curtin wrote:
Felix, you might be on to something here. If you look at these images you'll see a man put on his aventail before his bascinet.

www.manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscri...eve-ms1130


That's a maille standard.

I think trying to put on a true aventail separate from the helmet and then attaching them once in place is incredibly impractical. I have a pretty close fitting aventail and created integral padding for it and it's not hard to put on or take off.

From a purely practical standpoint, I just built a quilted aventail from linen and batting, and sewed the maille edge to the edge of the padding. The aventail padding then attaches to the helmet liner (if I didn't already have a liner I would have made this all one piece). I tailored the maille as best I could to get a close fit. This is just how I approached the problem from a modern standpoint, and this is the result:





Yes, it is impractical from a modern viewpoint. Because we are used to, or even forced to put as much of our armour ononour own. How long would a trained helper need to attach the aventsil to the helmet and fiddle the string on. Maybe 5 minutes when he is lazy.
By doing it seperate you could cut the padded part in the way of a full chi strap. Just an idea.
I don't think that detachability would be only for maintenance. Because it wouldn't help anything as long as the a entail is sewn to the padded foundation. So could readily sew the aventail to the helmet as you do with the liner.
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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Mar, 2013 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
Augusto this piece may have been made for a jousting helm, but perhaps it could be considered as a proof of concept for single piece padded coif, like the one that Jason linked to above.


Yeah, it was kinda my point in the OP =).
Problem is I cannot proof their existence in such early times as the 1360's....

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PostPosted: Fri 22 Mar, 2013 12:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Augusto Boer Bront wrote:
Stephen Curtin wrote:
Augusto this piece may have been made for a jousting helm, but perhaps it could be considered as a proof of concept for single piece padded coif, like the one that Jason linked to above.


Yeah, it was kinda my point in the OP =).
Problem is I cannot proof their existence in such early times as the 1360's....


Ah, ok I get what your saying.

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PostPosted: Sun 24 Mar, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix R. wrote:

Yes, it is impractical from a modern viewpoint. Because we are used to, or even forced to put as much of our armour ononour own. How long would a trained helper need to attach the aventsil to the helmet and fiddle the string on. Maybe 5 minutes when he is lazy.
By doing it seperate you could cut the padded part in the way of a full chi strap. Just an idea.
I don't think that detachability would be only for maintenance. Because it wouldn't help anything as long as the a entail is sewn to the padded foundation. So could readily sew the aventail to the helmet as you do with the liner.


I see no practical purpose of having the two separate when donning or removing the helmet. You don't need a chin strap on a properly fitted bascinet. It sits quite snugly and doesn't move around. We have ample evidence of how the aventail was shaped in the face opening, and it is almost always depicted covering the chin just under the bottom lip. Why would you want to have a squire or valet help you attach and aventail when you can get the same effect just by plopping it on your head in 5 seconds.

The aventail top opening can't be any smaller than the bottom of the helmet's opening because of how it attaches, regardless of when you put it on, so you can't make the aventail tighter than the helmet anyway unless you want to wear an entirely separate maille standard and forego the aventail altogether. That's an option too. I just don't think you can get a better fit aventail that detaches compared it it's semi-permanently attached counterpart. It is ultimately restricted by the circumference of the bottom opening of the helmet itself.

As far as NOT sewing the aventail to the integral padding, I would recommend against this. The padding and maille need to move as a unit to provide proper protection. If you do not sew the maille to the padding, it will drag against the padding, restricting movement, allowing bunching, and not reaching it's full potential as protection. When sewn together, everything moves as one piece, there is no drag, and it keeps the maille laying flat, offering the most protection possible.

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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Sun 24 Mar, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I don´t argue against sewing the padded liner to the aventail at all. I was just pointing out that there must be a reason to have the aventail attached to the basinet by a string. So there must be a reason for quick detachability. Otherwise you could just sew it to the helmet as well.

There are actually a lot of different face openings in basinets and most reconstruction aventails are not properly shaped to those openings. There was an interesting discussion over at the Armorarchive a while back. There are also ways to make the aventail "bag shaped" around the chin, I am not going so far to say this would be appropriate for what we are looking at, but it was in earlier times. Then, you could also shape the liner more "chin fitted" without changing the hanging maille piece in that area. I don´t say you would need a snug fit there.

I cam eup with that idea when I was modifying my bascinet. It does have a totally different shape than yours, or the most versions. But it has a liner with triangular flaps that attach to the inside of the elongated cheek pieces. Pulling in the liner after putting on the helmet by a drawstring would make it work like a chinstrap.

Another thing that made me think of something chinstrap-like is the fact that most if not all helmets of modern times have something like that, for instance helmet for motor bikes. Those are very snug fitting and still there is a chinstrap, because when there ist uncontrolled force applied, you wouldn´t just rely on a snug fit.

Just some thoughts, to get a clue about the idea in the first sentences.



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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Sun 24 Mar, 2013 1:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Walter von Hohenklingen effigy, for example, does look like having a shaped chin section.
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