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Tyler Simplot
Location: WI Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 6
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 Posted: Tue 04 Sep, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: Teutonic Knight armour |
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Hello all!
My first question with this post is what finish was used on late 14th century and early 15th century gothic and teutonic knight plate armor? Im seeing anything from steel, stainless, and blued? In this time was there alot of brass buttons and etchings on armor? were rivets steel or brass? I do have a few other questions regarding this subject but would like to hear whats what on this first. Thank you!
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Tue 04 Sep, 2012 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Stainless? Stainless steel was not created until the earlier 20th Century.
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Joe Wolowicz
Location: Massachusetts Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 13
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Jojo Zerach
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| Posted: Tue 04 Sep, 2012 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure where you heard that, but extensive plate coverage was common for knights and man-at-arms by the mid-14th century.
(English effigy from 1346:
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/john_...141/large/ )
And the 15th century is considered by many to be the apex period of plate armour. 1530 is shortly before plate armour goes into decline.
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Joe Wolowicz
Location: Massachusetts Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 13
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Ian S LaSpina
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| Posted: Tue 04 Sep, 2012 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Teutonic Knight armour |
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| Tyler Simplot wrote: | Hello all!
My first question with this post is what finish was used on late 14th century and early 15th century gothic and teutonic knight plate armor? Im seeing anything from steel, stainless, and blued? |
No such thing as stainless steel at this time. Armor could also be, and was, painted. Early 15th century armor was not 'gothic' armor. The gothic style of German armor refers to later 15th century examples of armor. The pinnacle of the gothic style of armor would be something like this harness ca. 1480. You can see it displays a lot of decorative gilding and filework:
Which you can read about here:
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_gothic_armour.html
| Tyler Simplot wrote: |
In this time was there alot of brass buttons and etchings on armor? were rivets steel or brass? I do have a few other questions regarding this subject but would like to hear whats what on this first. Thank you! |
Brass decoration of armor is not what I would say the 'norm,' but it was definitely done. Edging plates with strips of brass as decoration is seen. 'Washing' an hourglass gauntlet in brass or gold was a common example of what one would think of as decoration on steel armor. Also, brass strips around the facial openings of late 14th century bascinets, or bordering the visors are documented.. Here's a photo of my late 14th century hourglass gauntlets decorated with what I'm trying to describe:
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest
"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
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Tyler Simplot
Location: WI Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Tue 04 Sep, 2012 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ok. So with the steel some places offer blued steel is that something that would have been done at the time or is that another modern touch? And in the above photo of the gothic armor is that something they might have used the a great helm on or would they have stuck to that helmet with that armor? The great helm would have been near obsolete by about the time of this armor?Thanks for the help so far i appreciate it!
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Jojo Zerach
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| Posted: Tue 04 Sep, 2012 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Tyler Simplot wrote: | | Ok. So with the steel some places offer blued steel is that something that would have been done at the time or is that another modern touch? And in the above photo of the gothic armor is that something they might have used the a great helm on or would they have stuck to that helmet with that armor? The great helm would have been near obsolete by about the time of this armor?Thanks for the help so far i appreciate it! |
The great helm was old fashioned by about 1340-1350, and was largely used for tournaments/jousting after that. (Interestingly, this is when heraldic great helms start appearing in effigies under the bascinet, probably signifying a specialized tournament helm.)
Gothic armour almost exclusively used a Sallet, and would have never used a great helm.
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Raman A
Location: United States Joined: 25 Aug 2011
Posts: 148
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Tyler Simplot
Location: WI Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Wed 05 Sep, 2012 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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I may indeed have to get that book. So would it have been typical of teutonic knights to wear chainmail without plate over it in the early 15th century? what was the style of armor worn before gothic called, anything specific? If so does someone have a link to armor like that.
Im looking for something that was used with teh heraldic great helms, it doesnt have to be full plate or even plate. But i would like it to accurately represent the time period. I want eh set of armor to one be combat orientated however i also want a helmet that goes with it properly but that is decorated. i do like the great helms when decorated, like what would have been done for jousting or for showing off. Like those cople of examples you see where they had horns with flashy colors on them. So really two helmets a combat and show one. Both correctly corresponding with the armor.
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Wed 05 Sep, 2012 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Tyler Simplot wrote: | I may indeed have to get that book. So would it have been typical of teutonic knights to wear chainmail without plate over it in the early 15th century? what was the style of armor worn before gothic called, anything specific? If so does someone have a link to armor like that.
Im looking for something that was used with teh heraldic great helms, it doesnt have to be full plate or even plate. But i would like it to accurately represent the time period. I want eh set of armor to one be combat orientated however i also want a helmet that goes with it properly but that is decorated. i do like the great helms when decorated, like what would have been done for jousting or for showing off. Like those cople of examples you see where they had horns with flashy colors on them. So really two helmets a combat and show one. Both correctly corresponding with the armor. |
For the most part, those particularly flashy crested great helms were for tournement and to a lesser degree mounted combat. Even then, usually a cervellier or bascinet was worn underneath, and when it came time to fight on foot, the great helm came off and they fought on foot with the small helmet.
Armour starts to transition from the age of maille in the 13th C. By the 15th you have full harness. However the Great Helm is pretty much no longer used in battle by the mid 14th. Its still in use for the joust. However, it was mostly out of fashion by the 15th C, having developed into the "Frog Mouth" for the most part. These are primarily tournament helms AFAIK.
So if you want a Great Helm, you're gonna have to go earlier back into the late 13th and 14th C.
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Bjorn Hagstrom
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| Posted: Wed 05 Sep, 2012 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Tyler Simplot wrote: |
Im looking for something that was used with teh heraldic great helms, it doesnt have to be full plate or even plate. But i would like it to accurately represent the time period. I want eh set of armor to one be combat orientated however i also want a helmet that goes with it properly but that is decorated. i do like the great helms when decorated, like what would have been done for jousting or for showing off. Like those cople of examples you see where they had horns with flashy colors on them. So really two helmets a combat and show one. Both correctly corresponding with the armor. |
If you by "Teutonic knight" means a knight of the teutonic order, remember that they would be subject to monastic rules, participating in jousts and any "showing off" would likely be prohibited. Not taking away from the fact that great helms with crests are still super-cool...
There is nothing quite as sad as a one man conga-line...
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Jojo Zerach
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| Posted: Wed 05 Sep, 2012 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Tyler Simplot wrote: | I may indeed have to get that book. So would it have been typical of teutonic knights to wear chainmail without plate over it in the early 15th century? what was the style of armor worn before gothic called, anything specific? If so does someone have a link to armor like that.
Im looking for something that was used with teh heraldic great helms, it doesnt have to be full plate or even plate. But i would like it to accurately represent the time period. I want eh set of armor to one be combat orientated however i also want a helmet that goes with it properly but that is decorated. i do like the great helms when decorated, like what would have been done for jousting or for showing off. Like those cople of examples you see where they had horns with flashy colors on them. So really two helmets a combat and show one. Both correctly corresponding with the armor. |
If you want to use a heraldic great helm and have it be accurate, you would probably want to go for the first half of the 14th century. This is a period that saw dramatic changes in armour, from mostly mail harnesses to harness that were largely plate, so there are lots of options. (This varied by region and station, of course.) You could also look into the 13th century.
Here is a very helpful website that allows you to search effigies by region and date.
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/
(Effigies and art are the best resource for the look of pre-15th century armor, due to the scarcity of surviving pieces from the 14thC and earlier.)
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Tyler Simplot
Location: WI Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Wed 05 Sep, 2012 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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In keeping with useing the great helm i think then i woule be willing to go with the mid to early 14th century. I want to keep it in the reniassance without getting to far into it. That is a nice site i will explore more in the morning i did notice a majority of it was italian. Were the italian and german armors pretty close? From my understanding they were the two areas that produced the best armor of the time. An early14th century suit with mail and a plate cuirass would be pretty nice. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the teutonic order ahad a lot of flash stuff but at some point they changed and only allowed the use of a white tunic with a black cross. I am unsure of the ate they gave for it im going to say like 1250 but im not 100 percent on that.
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Jojo Zerach
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| Posted: Wed 05 Sep, 2012 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Tyler Simplot wrote: | | In keeping with useing the great helm i think then i woule be willing to go with the mid to early 14th century. I want to keep it in the reniassance without getting to far into it. That is a nice site i will explore more in the morning i did notice a majority of it was italian. Were the italian and german armors pretty close? From my understanding they were the two areas that produced the best armor of the time. An early14th century suit with mail and a plate cuirass would be pretty nice. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the teutonic order ahad a lot of flash stuff but at some point they changed and only allowed the use of a white tunic with a black cross. I am unsure of the ate they gave for it im going to say like 1250 but im not 100 percent on that. |
You can search all countries by using the "search" option near the top of the page.
During most of the 14th century, you'll notice Germany and northern Europe lagged somewhat behind western Europe in terms of articulated plate pieces.
Here are a couple good examples I found of typical German armour from the 1340's:
-http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/gunth...749/large/
-http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/otto_...194/large/
And these are a few examples of slightly more old-fashioned German armour from around that time:
-http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/albre.../91/large/
-http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/kuno_...899/large/
-http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/ludwi...864/large/
Notice that in most of these effigies, you can see heraldic great helms.
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Luka Borscak
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Ian S LaSpina
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| Posted: Thu 06 Sep, 2012 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| Tyler Simplot wrote: | | In keeping with useing the great helm i think then i woule be willing to go with the mid to early 14th century. I want to keep it in the reniassance without getting to far into it. That is a nice site i will explore more in the morning i did notice a majority of it was italian. Were the italian and german armors pretty close? From my understanding they were the two areas that produced the best armor of the time. An early14th century suit with mail and a plate cuirass would be pretty nice. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the teutonic order ahad a lot of flash stuff but at some point they changed and only allowed the use of a white tunic with a black cross. I am unsure of the ate they gave for it im going to say like 1250 but im not 100 percent on that. |
The Renaissance has not happened yet. You're looking at the High to Late Middle Ages. During the 'transitional period' of armor which is the transition from an entirely maille harness to a plate harness during the 14th century, the divergence of the Italian and German styles of armor really hasn't happened yet either. There were some small stylistic differences from country to country. Klappvisor bascinets and splinted cuisses stayed in fashion in Germany longer than elsewhe for example, but for the most part, the big divergence in styles doesn't yet exist.
The Italian and German style difference you're referring to is again a mid to late 15th century thing. This is when we see the Italian, or Milanese style harness emerge of large rounded plates with smooth glancing surfaces. Opposed to that you have the German, or High Gothic style of armor, with large amounts of fluting to strengthen plates and decorative filework.
You're falling in to the trap of lumping the Middle Ages in to one big time period. You have to realize that these different styles of armor were changing and developing over hundreds of years. A man in 1480 Germany in a gothic harness would look at a ca 1330 Great Helm and coat of plates much the same way a modern soldier would look at a an old American West colt six-shooter... as an antique. I really recommend you take a look at that book 'Arms and Armor of thhe Medieval Knight,' to help straighten out the timeline.
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest
"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
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Craig Shackleton
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| Posted: Thu 06 Sep, 2012 8:05 am Post subject: |
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One thing that I think is super cool from the mid-14th century are he German bascinets with the trangular mail flap that attaches to the middle of the brow band. I've never seen anyone reproduce this. I'd love to be able to get one, with a great helm that can go over top and fit correctly.
Ottawa Swordplay
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Jojo Zerach
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| Posted: Thu 06 Sep, 2012 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Ian S LaSpina wrote: | | Tyler Simplot wrote: | | In keeping with useing the great helm i think then i woule be willing to go with the mid to early 14th century. I want to keep it in the reniassance without getting to far into it. That is a nice site i will explore more in the morning i did notice a majority of it was italian. Were the italian and german armors pretty close? From my understanding they were the two areas that produced the best armor of the time. An early14th century suit with mail and a plate cuirass would be pretty nice. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the teutonic order ahad a lot of flash stuff but at some point they changed and only allowed the use of a white tunic with a black cross. I am unsure of the ate they gave for it im going to say like 1250 but im not 100 percent on that. |
The Renaissance has not happened yet. You're looking at the High to Late Middle Ages. During the 'transitional period' of armor which is the transition from an entirely maille harness to a plate harness during the 14th century, the divergence of the Italian and German styles of armor really hasn't happened yet either. There were some small stylistic differences from country to country. Klappvisor bascinets and splinted cuisses stayed in fashion in Germany longer than elsewhe for example, but for the most part, the big divergence in styles doesn't yet exist.
The Italian and German style difference you're referring to is again a mid to late 15th century thing. This is when we see the Italian, or Milanese style harness emerge of large rounded plates with smooth glancing surfaces. Opposed to that you have the German, or High Gothic style of armor, with large amounts of fluting to strengthen plates and decorative filework.
You're falling in to the trap of lumping the Middle Ages in to one big time period. You have to realize that these different styles of armor were changing and developing over hundreds of years. A man in 1480 Germany in a gothic harness would look at a ca 1330 Great Helm and coat of plates much the same way a modern soldier would look at a an old American West colt six-shooter... as an antique. I really recommend you take a look at that book 'Arms and Armor of thhe Medieval Knight,' to help straighten out the timeline. |
There are actually major stylistic divergences between regions during the 14th century, especially in the second half. If you compare late 14th century French effigies to English effigies from the same time, you'll see two entirely different styles of armour.
Even in the early 14th century, it is easy to tell the difference between an English harness and a German one.
A lot of people seem to have the wrong impression about 14th century armour due to the lack of variety in the SCA and reenactment groups.
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Tyler Simplot
Location: WI Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Thu 06 Sep, 2012 11:07 am Post subject: |
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I was asking about the different armors to see what was what. And i think i would rather have a set of armor that belongs with a great helm than not. So i was asking as much as i could in regards to this. As you all have more knowledge on this subject than i do. Like i said i understand that there are a combat helmet and a flashy helmet(jousting or tourny as you call them) thats why i was talking about both. I dont think im lumping it all into one , maybe but thats why i switched up and started to ask about plate with maille because i assumed that would have been paired in the times before full body plate armor was developed, which would take it to the early 14th century where several posts and threads on here have said the great helm was used. Also the renaissance was between 14 and 17th century so wouldnt the great helm have been used at the begining of it, maybe not by the germans? I guess maybe what you are saying is that the renaissance hasnt happened yet in northern europe in the 14th but it started in Italy in the 14th. I dont mean to have this sound like i have an attitude or anything along those lines. It just seems that there is a bit of contradictory statements or something going on and i do appreciate all help so far as ive already learned alot!
Im going to check out that webpage now and see what i can find on there and can someone then tell me what would the germans have used with the great helm roughly? Even if its not full plate armor i understand they hadnt advanced to the gothic armor yet which is fine since they didnt use the combo of those two anyways.
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This is a standard topic