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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Aug, 2012 11:54 am    Post subject: Swords testing day (Day 2 added)         Reply with quote

http://youtu.be/INKuF5C1rfc

Swords testing day

Cutting pork arms is a task that is very demanding on the swords' quality and the swordsman's skill.

The pork bone has calcified since the cease of bloodflow, rendering it much harder than the living bone tissues, surpassing the hardness of human bones. In addition, the pork arms are not heavy in weight. Combining the lightweight and high hardness, pork arms are very difficult to cut.

There are not many swords that can withstand cutting pork arms without suffering any edge damages.

Hence, Lancelot Chan tested a handful of swords to find out which one would survive intact.

http://youtu.be/JywFM2wOlOA

Sword testing day again. Tested a Lung Chuan 2 handed Han Jian and Hanwai Bamboo mat katana on pork arms.

Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk


Last edited by Lancelot Chan on Wed 15 Aug, 2012 9:12 am; edited 2 times in total
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 08 Aug, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting tests and although robust edges seem to be less prone to damage in most cases some very sharp blades seem to survive without apparent damage, heat treat being critical in not being too brittle so as to not chip and not too soft as to not bend or deform.

Sharpness is certainly a important factor but also how much " meat " is behind the edge to support it.

Having a small secondary bevel with an obtuse angle could be quite sharp, as in having close to a zero edge but being thick enough behind the edge to not be easily damaged or at least contain the damage to a shallow depth that can be sharpened out without having to grind away a lot of material.

A thick convex apple seed edge being an alternate solution to an obtuse secondary edge bevel.

Very thin blades with a shallow angled very sharp edge would be the best cutters but also the most prone to damage I think.

In any case a sword doesn't really need to be extremely sharp to be effective. Wink Big Grin Cool

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Lancelot Chan
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Location: Hong Kong
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Aug, 2012 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with all your points! We've seen very hard swords getting their edges bitten off after hitting the pork arms. So being too hard is no good. We were surprised by the survivability of that very sharp Nodachi. It was the first time we've seen such extreme degree of sharpness could withstand cutting pork arms. Still, it would not be wise to use it in combat because hitting the opponent's sword, regardless it was an active move or simply being parried, would be another story!

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Interesting tests and although robust edges seem to be less prone to damage in most cases some very sharp blades seem to survive without apparent damage, heat treat being critical in not being too brittle so as to not chip and not too soft as to not bend or deform.

Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Aug, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot, living in Hong Kong I hope you can satisfy a curiosity of mine.

As I'm sure you know, in the west those uneducated about swords often hold the belief that Asian swords, particularly Japanese swords, are vastly superior to the swords of medieval and renaissance Europe.

Obviously we know this is not the case and pretty much all swords from warrior cultures are effective weapons, albeit with their own particular strengths and weaknesses.

My question is in what do people in the east generally think of western swords? Do they think they are drastically better or worse than they really are, or do they have no strong feeling, etc?

Thanks!

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 1:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Usually they buy the media talk and thought European swords are heavy and clumsy.

I have spent great effort in dispelling this for so many years, as a German longsword practitioner and the pioneer here in Hong Kong, performing the first Cantonese German longsword seminar for local people. Thus at least in Hong Kong, there are some accomplishments in correcting their concept. Now since I have a blog written in Chinese, people in mainland China and Taiwan also started to realize the truth.

I hope things will get better in the future.

T. Arndt wrote:
Lancelot, living in Hong Kong I hope you can satisfy a curiosity of mine.

As I'm sure you know, in the west those uneducated about swords often hold the belief that Asian swords, particularly Japanese swords, are vastly superior to the swords of medieval and renaissance Europe.

Obviously we know this is not the case and pretty much all swords from warrior cultures are effective weapons, albeit with their own particular strengths and weaknesses.

My question is in what do people in the east generally think of western swords? Do they think they are drastically better or worse than they really are, or do they have no strong feeling, etc?

Thanks!

Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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Mark T




PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 4:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
I have spent great effort in dispelling this for so many years, as a German longsword practitioner and the pioneer here in Hong Kong, performing the first Cantonese German longsword seminar for local people. Thus at least in Hong Kong, there are some accomplishments in correcting their concept. Now since I have a blog written in Chinese, people in mainland China and Taiwan also started to realize the truth.


My guess is that Lance has done more to challenge these notions in 'the East' more than most others there; he's also been practicing HEMA longer than many in the West. Lance and the Sunday Butchers are a great bunch of dedicated, serious practitioners; if you ever get the chance to visit Hong Kong, be sure to look them up.

Lance: Thanks for another great series of tests! Who are HW who made the 4th and 5th test swords? Hanwei, or someone else?

And have you lost some of the overhead cables from on top of your building? Looks like you've got more room there these days! Hope the building superintendant is still friendly!

Cheers,
Mark

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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 4:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
Usually they buy the media talk and thought European swords are heavy and clumsy.

I have spent great effort in dispelling this for so many years, as a German longsword practitioner and the pioneer here in Hong Kong, performing the first Cantonese German longsword seminar for local people. Thus at least in Hong Kong, there are some accomplishments in correcting their concept. Now since I have a blog written in Chinese, people in mainland China and Taiwan also started to realize the truth.

I hope things will get better in the future.

T. Arndt wrote:
Lancelot, living in Hong Kong I hope you can satisfy a curiosity of mine.

As I'm sure you know, in the west those uneducated about swords often hold the belief that Asian swords, particularly Japanese swords, are vastly superior to the swords of medieval and renaissance Europe.

Obviously we know this is not the case and pretty much all swords from warrior cultures are effective weapons, albeit with their own particular strengths and weaknesses.

My question is in what do people in the east generally think of western swords? Do they think they are drastically better or worse than they really are, or do they have no strong feeling, etc?

Thanks!


Well, some of the Chinese makers like Hanwey/Paul Chen make European swords that have credible handling qualities, so some accurate information has had some effect otherwise they would be making only 10 pound one handers SLO. Wink Big Grin

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hheheh thanks for your great words.

HW is http://www.hwsword.com and is branched out from Huanuo sword. Huanuo swords get their stuff from Fred Chen, who also supplies Cold Steel for many of their swords. So the 4th and 5th swords I have tested can be regarded as "Cold Steel Bastard sword" and "O katana".

The real estate management company has refurbished the rooftop and cleared of many overhead cables. So your memory is totally correct. It's just that we didn't cut them with our swords. Big Grin

We'll have our rental contract renewal in December. I hope everything goes smoothly and I wish we don't get kicked out of the building for practicing on rooftop. Sad

Mark T wrote:
Lancelot Chan wrote:
I have spent great effort in dispelling this for so many years, as a German longsword practitioner and the pioneer here in Hong Kong, performing the first Cantonese German longsword seminar for local people. Thus at least in Hong Kong, there are some accomplishments in correcting their concept. Now since I have a blog written in Chinese, people in mainland China and Taiwan also started to realize the truth.


My guess is that Lance has done more to challenge these notions in 'the East' more than most others there; he's also been practicing HEMA longer than many in the West. Lance and the Sunday Butchers are a great bunch of dedicated, serious practitioners; if you ever get the chance to visit Hong Kong, be sure to look them up.

Lance: Thanks for another great series of tests! Who are HW who made the 4th and 5th test swords? Hanwei, or someone else?

And have you lost some of the overhead cables from on top of your building? Looks like you've got more room there these days! Hope the building superintendant is still friendly!

Cheers,
Mark

Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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Lancelot Chan
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Location: Hong Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 9:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hhehe I honestly think that Paul Chen didn't make any good European swords before his joint venture with Tinker. Since then, their newer European models may have been benefited from that!

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Well, some of the Chinese makers like Hanwey/Paul Chen make European swords that have credible handling qualities, so some accurate information has had some effect otherwise they would be making only 10 pound one handers SLO. Wink Big Grin

Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
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Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,177

PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
Hhehe I honestly think that Paul Chen didn't make any good European swords before his joint venture with Tinker. Since then, their newer European models may have been benefited from that!

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Well, some of the Chinese makers like Hanwey/Paul Chen make European swords that have credible handling qualities, so some accurate information has had some effect otherwise they would be making only 10 pound one handers SLO. Wink Big Grin


Well, from whatever source they learned to make better swords and the knowledge is spreading to more makers in your region, and that is a good thing.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 10:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hhehe but his display room in Taiwan is still full of his older "original" design and I have Taiwan Chinese martial arts friend come to me saying European swords handled just like katana and Chinese swords. :| It was because back then Paul might not have a proper understanding on European swords' distal taper ratio.

I had to spent a long time to convince him they don't handle the same. Sad So it's still a long road to go.

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Lancelot Chan wrote:
Hhehe I honestly think that Paul Chen didn't make any good European swords before his joint venture with Tinker. Since then, their newer European models may have been benefited from that!

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Well, some of the Chinese makers like Hanwey/Paul Chen make European swords that have credible handling qualities, so some accurate information has had some effect otherwise they would be making only 10 pound one handers SLO. Wink Big Grin


Well, from whatever source they learned to make better swords and the knowledge is spreading to more makers in your region, and that is a good thing.

Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
Likes: 14 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
Hhehe but his display room in Taiwan is still full of his older "original" design and I have Taiwan Chinese martial arts friend come to me saying European swords handled just like katana and Chinese swords. :| It was because back then Paul might not have a proper understanding on European swords' distal taper ratio.

I had to spent a long time to convince him they don't handle the same. Sad So it's still a long road to go.

If I was a new sword manufacturer now days trying to make a long sword, I think the first thing I would do would be to buy an Albion Earl and a A&A Durer and try to make something that handles similar to them.

This might not have been an option when Paul started, but I think even now it would not be a bad idea for any manufacturer to do. Use their competitors well handling swords as a kind of benchmark to measure their own designs against.

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Arndt wrote:
Lancelot Chan wrote:
Hhehe but his display room in Taiwan is still full of his older "original" design and I have Taiwan Chinese martial arts friend come to me saying European swords handled just like katana and Chinese swords. :| It was because back then Paul might not have a proper understanding on European swords' distal taper ratio.

I had to spent a long time to convince him they don't handle the same. Sad So it's still a long road to go.

If I was a new sword manufacturer now days trying to make a long sword, I think the first thing I would do would be to buy an Albion Earl and a A&A Durer and try to make something that handles similar to them.

This might not have been an option when Paul started, but I think even now it would not be a bad idea for any manufacturer to do. Use their competitors well handling swords as a kind of benchmark to measure their own designs against.


Well, studying an Albion or A&A to understand and know how a well made sword handles might be legitimate research but
not too ethical to buy these swords and copy/clone them closely and profit from somebody else's research.

Oh, and don't think that some less than ethical makers haven't already done what you suggest and purchased a high end sword to copy !

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
Likes: 14 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 6:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
T. Arndt wrote:
Lancelot Chan wrote:
Hhehe but his display room in Taiwan is still full of his older "original" design and I have Taiwan Chinese martial arts friend come to me saying European swords handled just like katana and Chinese swords. :| It was because back then Paul might not have a proper understanding on European swords' distal taper ratio.

I had to spent a long time to convince him they don't handle the same. Sad So it's still a long road to go.

If I was a new sword manufacturer now days trying to make a long sword, I think the first thing I would do would be to buy an Albion Earl and a A&A Durer and try to make something that handles similar to them.

This might not have been an option when Paul started, but I think even now it would not be a bad idea for any manufacturer to do. Use their competitors well handling swords as a kind of benchmark to measure their own designs against.


Well, studying an Albion or A&A to understand and know how a well made sword handles might be legitimate research but
not too ethical to buy these swords and copy/clone them closely and profit from somebody else's research.

Oh, and don't think that some less than ethical makers haven't already done what you suggest and purchased a high end sword to copy !


I want clarify, I am not encouraging copying. But if you want to make good pianos, comparing the sound of your piano with that of your high caliber competitors is surely a worth while exercise.

Edit: Fixed typo.

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal


Last edited by T. Arndt on Fri 10 Aug, 2012 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 1:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Arndt wrote:

I want clarify, I am not encouraging copying. But if you want to make good pianos, comparing the sound of your piano that of your high caliber competitors is surely a worth while exercise.


And I understood your intent and didn't want to imply that you where encouraging unethical copying: Was just bringing up " The Dark Side " of going further than learning to stealing ideas. Big Grin Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Lancelot Chan
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Location: Hong Kong
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Aug, 2012 7:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://youtu.be/JywFM2wOlOA
Sword testing day again. Tested a Lung Chuan 2 handed Han Jian and Hanwai Bamboo mat katana on pork arms.

Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional



Location: Hong Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 1,217

PostPosted: Sun 11 Nov, 2012 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/89662279-2811463993.html

Hanwei stole my video without permission and added their logo on it!


Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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