[D. S. Smith]

Hello all, I'm looking for a little advice on a gambeson. I'm not really familiar at all with the difference between a gambeson and an arming jacket. I'm trying to put together an early to mid 1300's impression (on a budget and a bit of a time crunch). Maille is unfortunately out of the question, as even the cheapest sets (hauberk and coif) are out of my price range and would likely take too long to order (unless of course anyone has a set they'd like to loan me for a week ).

I've picked a surcoat to order, and figured that a gambeson would be passable for the look until I can obtain maille down the road. I see that some gambeson's have leather straps and buckles for closures, while others have ties. I prefer the strap and buckle look, but don't know if it is historically accurate or not. Here is one I really like the looks of, and I'd be interested to know if it could work for the time period I'm interested in:

http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-9777-black-buc...b0138.aspx

Also, if a gambeson would not be suitable for that time period, please give me other suggestions of something that could be worn under a surcoat and look reasonably acceptable.

The sword that I'll be wearing is an Albion Crecy, so mid-1300's would be appropriate for that. As for the surcoat, I've always been a fan of white (especially with dark clothing underneath), so this is the one I like:
http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-5169-crusader-surcoat-tt9-975.aspx

Any other help would be appreciated for completing the ensamble. The low ankle style boots have been suggested, as well as tight fitting leggings (to avoid the baggy pants innacurate look). Again, budget is a bit of a concern at this point so please keep that in mind with suggestions.

Thanks!

[Tom King]

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...7%27+Chest
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...7%27+Chest
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...ret+Helmet
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...ced+Helmet
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...Great+Helm

The problem you have is that your target period doesn't match what you seem to be thinking. By the 1300's plate armor was starting to develop. If you want to portray a light infantryman from the early 14th century, forgo the gambeson and just wear a thick sweater under a mail shirt. A gambeson will cost just as much as a cheap mail shirt, and the mail is much more impressive looking. This is the start of the period of the transition from the Great helm and skull cap to the bacinet, so rather than buying a 12th century "teutonic"surcoat, purchase a light skull cap and coif or the cheapest indian bacinet you can find and remove the hound skull visor.

Alternatively, you could go mail shirt, great helm with coif, leather bracers (splinted would match the period) , and padded chauses or the like.

If you are using the kit for living history/ fair use, the mail and armor look is a lot more impressive looking to patrons. Also, since you aren't fighting in it, you don't need to worry about padding

[D. S. Smith]

Thanks for the links Tom. I had a feeling that kit was not correct for the period. I greatly prefer the mail and surcoat look over anything involving plate. Maybe I should plan my impression for about 100 years earlier, give or take. The teutonic surcoat is the look that defines a knight to me. I thought I was sort of locked into the mid- 14th century by using a hand and a half sword.

I really like the looks of that haubergeon, and you're right, it's not much more expensive than the gambeson. If I went that route, however, I'd have to find a way of darkening the mail rings. I'm not a fan of shiny mail.

[Paul Hansen]

[Tom King]

GDFB mail comes pretty dark to begin with. It is zinc coated and comes metallic gray black. You could go for more of a crusader look with an earlier helmet, such as these, and a coif

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...Top+Helmet
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...t+Top+Helm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...with+Visor
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...oaf+Helmet

[Brian Robson]

If you want to go for 13c for the mail/surcoat look, take a look at some of the guides etc. i've made for our re-enactment group (focus is 1250)

My kit
http://dawnofchivalry.wikispaces.com/Biro%27s+Knight+Kit+-+1250

Basic kit guides
http://dawnofchivalry.wikispaces.com/Kit+Guides

The initial problem I see is a common one. Knights wore mail. Taking a surcoat without the mail doesn't really work. the kit guides there are really based around building up kit levels gradually - but keeping it accurate, with the idea that your social/military 'rank' reflects your equipment and it would change as your kit changed. But the starting point (Levy) is the cheapest and easiest to do. The end point (Knight) is the most expensive and difficult - but still uses most of the kit bought for the preceeding 'ranks'.

Also for the 13c, mail was head to toe - so if you want to keep it cheap, you could even go back to late 12c - where the mail chausses and mittens could be skipped - yet there is evidence that surcotes were around (although not common). Although this would mean a large, flat-topped kite shield rather than a heater - and conical helm or faceplate rather than a secret, kettle-hat or great helm.

We get most of our gambesons from http://www.medieval-market.com/ and have also used http://www.matuls.pl/index.php?Lng=en Both are very good. We also have a bunch of home-made gambies too.

I havn't seen any evidence of any front fastenings on 12 or 13c gambies - so we tend to have them pulled on over the head (which isn't easy when it comes to taking them off when you're tired and sweaty!)

[Alan Schiff]

Mail is still an option for a 14th century kit, I don't think you need to go earlier than your initial target period. For most of the 14th century mail was still the predominant form of armor, with bits and pieces of plate being introduced and worn at various integers. But a full plate harness wasn't in use until very late in the century. The Battle of Wisby took place in 1361 and much of the armor was either mail or coats of plate, at least from what I've read. Type XVIa swords were, according to Oakeshott, most popular from about 1330-1380. A kit from 1330-1350 would be based around mail with the possible addition of plate arm and leg protection. Remember though that not all knights or men-at-arms were wealthy enough to afford the latest styles of armor. You could pass as a (relatively) poor knight wearing only mail.

If mail is still out of budget, you could probably get away with just a gambeson but may want to forgo the surcoat and pass as a man-at-arms or levy until you can get some mail. Alternatively, if you are not trying to pass as being in battle raiment, you could just wear the surcoat over a shirt or gambeson as part of your regular everyday ensemble. Knights weren't always in battle.

Hope that helps,
Alan

[D. S. Smith]

Thanks for the feedback gentlemen! Brian, your links were great! You've put a lot of effort into research and it's very impressive.

Alan, I actually like your last suggestion best. The surcoat is the most impressive part of the ensemble to me, so I've got to try and incorporate a look that uses it. I should probably have specified, but the look I'm going for doesn't at all have to be battle-ready. Eventually I'd like to get a complete kit, war-ready and all. But I don't have the time or budget to accomplish that at this point. The event I have coming up in a month is actually a friend's wedding, followed by a coronation ceremony/ dinner. So a more noble, less battle weary look would be just as appropriate, if not moreso.

The advantage of a gambeson, and one of the reasons I was attracted to it in place of mail, was cost. It's true that the gambeson I was looking at is $122 and the mail hauberk is only $140, but here's the difference. I figure that under a surcoat, with a mail hauberk, I'd still need something for at least the neck or chest (something has to be under the mail, or at least covering the neck I'd assume). So if I added a coif, the price goes up more, or at least I'd have to figure out some sort of period clothing with a type of collar to wear under the hauberk. A gambeson removes that requirement, since it has a sort of collar built in.

[Matthew P. Adams]

Have you thought about jack chains? They would add some steel to a gambeson, they fit the time period, and they are Less than 75.00 dollars.

http://kultofathena.com/s_results.asp?search=...mit=Search

Here they are being worn.

http://www.woodsarmoury.com/armour-harness-jack-chains.asp

[James Barker]

Not wearing maille for the upper class is rare in early 14th century art but there are a couple of examples

A type 5 on here would work for early 1300s http://www.medieval-market.com/goods.php?kate...20Garments

Arnaud de Gaveston 1310: http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Winchester Cathedral Arnaud de Gaveston 1310 108.JPG

Robert de Shurland 1327: http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Minster%...%20156.JPG

After the 1330s plate parts over the maille becomes common.