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Wilhelm V.S.




Location: USA
Joined: 17 Dec 2011

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 6:42 am    Post subject: Helmet Suggestions         Reply with quote

Esteemed forum members:
Over the last year, I've been making the transition from a Vikinger, to a German Knight, Circa 1500.
I've been buying pieces as I can afford them, and nearly have my harness together. I've got lines on most of the things I still need, and will order them, when funds become available. The one thing I'm still unable to find it a suitable helmet.
All the helmets which would look good with the kit seem to be cheap asian-made 18 gauge knockoffs. I was hoping for a good early Burgonet, does any one make a good quality burgonet that's combat-worthy, historically accurate, and not $1000?
Any suggestions about what kind of helmet to order, where to look for one, etc... would be most appreciated


Thanks,
- Wilhelm

P.S. Yes, I know the sword is not exactly right for that kit.



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Harness.png


Deus Vult!
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
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Posts: 614

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: Helmet Suggestions         Reply with quote

Wilhelm V.S. wrote:


P.S. Yes, I know the sword is not exactly right for that kit.


Are you convinced a burgonet would be? If so, why?

BTW, my compliments on accumulating such kit so early in your fighting career. Cool
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Wilhelm V.S.




Location: USA
Joined: 17 Dec 2011

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: Helmet Suggestions         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:
Wilhelm V.S. wrote:


P.S. Yes, I know the sword is not exactly right for that kit.


Are you convinced a burgonet would be? If so, why?

BTW, my compliments on accumulating such kit so early in your fighting career. Cool


No, not at all convinced. My fechtmeister suggested a burgonet, that's all.
Thanks, it was going really slow till I graduated high school. Then, armed with cards and checks from extended family members, I was able to really jump start the project!

Deus Vult!
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 10:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Okay... get a better look at harnesses of the period; there is plenty of art, numerous effigies and surviving pieces from the time you mention. Finding detailed information is a better use of resources than buying kit on someone else's recommendation.
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Wilhelm V.S.




Location: USA
Joined: 17 Dec 2011

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 11:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:
Okay... get a better look at harnesses of the period; there is plenty of art, numerous effigies and surviving pieces from the time you mention. Finding detailed information is a better use of resources than buying kit on someone else's recommendation.

Problem is: What is represented in historical art, and what is produced by modern forges are two very different things. As a student (Currently working on a Medieval Studies degree) I've seen alot of amazing things in manuscripts that I would love to have a reproduction of. Sadly, there is a huge number of historical arms and armors that are simply not being reproduced.
That's why I asked here, because I am looking for information on late-medieval helm styles that currently are being properly reproduced. I don't have the funds to go get a custom helmet made, or I would have already done it.

Deus Vult!
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,452

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 8:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

wasn't Germany still going through the phase of transitioning from Gothic Armour around the year 1500?

so in theory, later period Gothic could suit you just as well, and in theory a sallet or armet would work well enough, theywere two very popular helmet styles around the end of the 15th century as far as ive been lead to believe.... i can help but think the burgonet was a later thing about a decade or 2 later.
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 678

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 9:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think what you kit needs is one of those 16th century brocade skirts, that would look sweet and it's done so rarely.
Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jul, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wilhelm V.S. wrote:

That's why I asked here, because I am looking for information on late-medieval helm styles that currently are being properly reproduced. I don't have the funds to go get a custom helmet made, or I would have already done it.


Ah. If you are interested in an appropriate helmet for your timeline, sufficiently well built to fight in and want to buy it off the shelf from GDFB or Windlass or somewhere like that, then no. I don't think you will be successful. That stuff is mostly intended as decoration for a bookshelf. Buying armour-like objects just to have them quickly and/or cheaply is a very, very bad investment.

If by custom made you mean an accurate reproduction of one of the many period examples in museums worldwide, I can see where the financial challenge may be high. However, there are plenty of Eastern European armourers putting out fair looking, sturdy late period kit for a few hundred US$. IMHO, start researching the close helmet and learn what they should look like. Then find someone who makes something similar. Just don't expect to get it in two weeks. Safe, properly fitting armour is essential to training. Leave off the bells and whistles of decoration or tempered steel. They make harness look better and survive longer but in themselves do not improve your training. A badly made or fitted piece of equipment, however economical, will hinder your training. Avoid the temptation to buy based on cheap or quick.
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Thomas R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jul, 2012 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Wilhelm,
I want to support Kels advice: don't buy cheap and quick, or you will buy double. And for a german kit, based around 1500 it's okay to get a sallet. Some decades into the 16th century it would be considered outdated, but for 1500 it would be a fairly typical helm.

And if you are looking into this thread http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...allet+sean , you can see, what can be done to make an ordinary GDFB sallet to a somewhat special item. Sean has done a fine job there.

Regards,
Thomas

http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
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Tom King




Location: florida
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Sun 15 Jul, 2012 1:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...ace+Sallet
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...+%26+Bevor
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...sor+Helmet
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...let+Helmet
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...with+Bevor (with collapsing bevor, but not recommended due to steel thickness)
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...ted+Gorget
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...with+Bevor

and some burgonets. most are 18ga, decent but not fighable repros
http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-1622-burgonet-helmet-ah-3819.aspx
http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-14913-burgonet...-6781.aspx
http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-11657-royal-gu...-8120.aspx
http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-2037-sport-burgonet-ah-6914.aspx (recomended)
http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-11861-the-burg...-8114.aspx

based on your kit, you should probably go with a sallet. possibly the bellows face or a sallet and bevor combo. as far as burgonets, the "sports burgonet by deepeeka is the cleanest looking one and cheaper than the other gaudy brass ones
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Wilhelm V.S.




Location: USA
Joined: 17 Dec 2011

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul, 2012 5:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, thanks for all the great advice!
Deus Vult!
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul, 2012 7:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With that kit, and for that period, you'd also be okay with a lined steel cap, especially with rondels over the ears (riveted to the chin straps). I see that pretty often in artwork of the period, even on men in quality infantry armour.

I have a helmet of this type on the workbench horizon, and I'll most likely get one of these "welded mild tops" for ~$60. Depending on what size you get and how you line it, it could either be a steel cap (smaller) or a light sallet (larger).If you don't feel up to finishing it yourself I'm sure this maker could do as much as you want and can afford. For a cap without rondels, the only tools you need are a drill, bit rated for stainless steel, and something to serve as an anvil to set the rivets (a sledge-hammer head works fine, but a 25# anvil is only about $30 at Harbor Freight, and you can drill a shallow rivet set in one end and not mess up a good hammer head.) It's pretty easy to make a padded linen liner and straps. There are several threads covering that in these fora.

http://roughfromthehammer.com/parts.html

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul, 2012 7:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

By the way, that's my GDFB sallet project in the earlier link, and I'd tend to steer you away from that unless you want a hardcore DIY project. It's a challenge to get the weight off of that thing and even then it's at the top end of the historical weight range. The transformed sallet looks great on a shelf or as a demonstrator and it's comfortable to wear, but If you want to be active in your kit I'd recommend something significantly lighter.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul, 2012 7:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For example, you could add this sallet/cap to the kit you show above and look like you belong in an Austrian painting of this period. Big Grin For a simple version of that helmet, I'd get a larger bowl and either line as-is as a light sallet or go further by flaring the lower edge, maybe turning the edges, and adding the rondels.


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1500_102.jpg


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul, 2012 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Consider these, from the Guild of St. Olof:


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 Attachment: 224.39 KB
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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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