[Henrik J. Fridh]

Hi everyone! My name is Henrik and as you can see by my post count, I'm new to this excellent forum although I have been reading it for quite a while. I'm looking forward to discuss arms and armour with all of you!

Now, on to the topic at hand.

Recently I have been reading up on Japanese history, namely the Sengoku Jidai in the 16th century. In the books I have read they all point to the fact that the Yari (spear) became the preferred weapon of choice for Samurai and Ashigaru alike in this period. This is quite a contrast to Europe, where in warfare during the 16th century seemed to swing more and more in favour of the sword amongst Knights, especially during the second half of the century. Knights dropped the use of the lance and instead favoured the sword, to my understanding at least.
Now in terms of arms and armour in Europe and Japan in this period, they are to me similar enough to make comparisons, so why did the Japanese favour the spear over the sword and vice versa with knights/soldiers (Cuirassiers rather than lancers) in Europe? Had it anything to do with the cost of weapons manufacture (I.E. cost and availability of iron in Japan) that influenced samurai to adopt the spear as the favoured weapon rather than the sword?

[Cole B]

I think our perception of the sword is distorted by the whole mystique - my understanding is that they were hardly the main weapon on battlefields, especially during the time period you're talking about, where armor was quite good, and if they were used it was often as a secondary weapon.

[Zac Evans]

In the 16th century the sword was a nobleman's civilian weapon. Generally in portraiture they wear a sword and have some form of mace included with their armour. Some garnitures appear to have maces included with the design drawings, while there are some examples of rapiers with matching clothing.

Pole weapons became the favoured weapon in armoured combat around the time maile was switched for plate. I assume something similar happened in japan, as their armour improved.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Henrik, welcome to the site and hope you enjoy the exchanges of ideas, information and opinions here.

I think that the spear was always very popular in Japan and as in Europe the polearms where like the rifle in modern times as the primary weapon and the sword was mostly comparable in function to the handgun as a secondary weapons when one lost the use of ones primary weapon ( Spear/polearm and bow/crossbow for missile troops ).

The sword is also the " have it with you at all times weapon ", when travelling at least, and in civilian wear where laws and custom permit.

Actually the shorter Wakizashi in Japan and daggers in Europe where even more the " have it with you at all times weapon " because at different times and place a sword wouldn't always be socially acceptable: In Japan I think a guest would leave his sword at the door and retrieve it on leaving, but it was more than acceptable, it was a tradition to always have the Wakizashi on one's person .... Removing the sword was being polite to the host, keeping the Wakizashi was being polite and respectfull of the guest. ( Anyway, I think that the previous is reasonnably accurate ).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakizashi

Getting back to the spear: It has reach, one can use the butt end also and effectively all of the spear could be used offensively and defensively and fighting with the spear was as sophisticated and technical as swordsmanship.

Earlier the Naginata was more popular that the Yari and was also the weapon of choice of warrior monks and became later associated as a woman's weapon to defend home or honour, I believe that many women of the warrior classes trained in using the Naginata and probably the Tanto also.

As to swords as a primary weapon this could be true with the very large twohanders in Japan and in Europe

The spear or rather the lance became less popular with cavalry in the 16th century when wheelock pistols and carbines became an important cavalry weapon.

Ultimately from the 17th century on firearms slowly became dominant as the primary weapon of the common soldier but polearms continued to be used fairly late and there was a return of popularity of the lancer in the late 18th and into the 19th centuries, and even into the early 20th.

[William P]

its also worth remembering the prevelance of pole weapons among armies in both places during the 1500's
in the form of pikes.
the pike remained a significant infantry weapon until the late 17h century and by the time of the 18th century, the pike had been completely supplemented by the bayonetted musket.
and even during the 15th century, the sword was largely largel second fiddle to items like the poleaxe a

its also worth noting that the japanese for reason never really caught the bug of using flintlocks and wheellocks the most common reason ive seen for this is because the japanese didn have the supplies of flint or iron pyrites needed to use these guns (although they could in reality have just imported flint, at leas hypothetically)
and just as importantly the sengoku period ended and the tokugawa peace aka the edo period,came about before the japanese could truely appreciate the wheellock so they simply never got the chance to develope the caracole tacics of their european contemporaries.

[Lafayette C Curtis]

See, this is where a little bit of background might come in handy. The spear/lance became the favoured weapon of the samurai in the 16th century, but the weapon it nudged away from this position wasn't the sword--it was the bow. Before the Sengoku era, Japanese warfare (for both samurai and common soldiers) was largely dominated by archery with occasional pulses of hand-to-hand fighting in an attempt to force the decision.

On the other hand, the European men-at-arms didn't "dropped the use of the lance and instead favoured the sword" either. The lance remained an important cavalry weapon into the mid-16th century or so and remained in use until at least the first decade of the 17th. The weapon that replaced it wasn't the sword but rather the long-barrelled cavalry pistol, whose sheer penetrative power was quite important for punching through the heavy armour of the late 16th century. In the end, the pistol and other firearms worked a bit too well and made soldiers reluctant to wear the increasingly heavy armour needed to resist them, so the sword once again became a highly useful weapon in the increasingly lightly-armoured or even unarmoured world of late 17th century warfare. By that time (say, the 1650s onwards) the comparison becomes rather irrelevant since the rise of the Tokugawa shogunate had put an end to large-scale organised warfare in Japan. (That being said, the sword also became more important in Japan since it was a handy tool for putting down major urban riots and organised crime in the civilianised climate of the era.)

[Henrik J. Fridh]

First of all I'd like to thank all of you for your replies to this thread And thank you for the welcome.

I think you all bring up many good points. It's true that in Japan the samurai was for many centuries mainly mounted archers, and lower-grade troops in the gempei war and probably all the way up to the Onin War the Naginata was preferred over the spear and sword. I've read theories on why the spear became the weapon of choice for the samurai in the sengoku period, one of which says that due to the increasing presence of ashigaru archers in the beginning of the period made it dangerous to be a mounted archer on the field, so the samurai instead opted to use spears on horseback to chase down ill-disciplined ashigaru archers. But then the pike becomes the dominating weapon on the battlefield and yet the samurai retain the spear as their main weapon of choice? Why? I'm not sure, might have to do with that they mostly fought other mounted/dismounted samurai or acted as officers amongst ashigaru pikemen.

In Europe it seems that swords with needle tips and very narrow blades were developed (sabres, rapiers) to combat armour in close combat, whilst in Japan they had a huge amount of variations in spears instead of developing a new kind of sword.

At the same time, the ones of you whom have pointed to the fact that the pistol became a very important weapon for mounted troops in the 16th century are correct of course, that is a fact that I had somewhat overlooked or misunderstood. Reiters, Pistoliers and Cuirassiers all made good use of the pistol, and maybe that is what actually replaced the lance moreso than the sword in Europe. As far as I know, the pistol never became widely used in Japan due to the peace after the Tokugawa Shogunate had been established and after the Osaka Campaigns and the Shimabara rebellion and thus perhaps allowed the spear to keep its importance during the sengoku period. As a result of the peace, the spear largely lost it's importance to the samurai and the sword instead became the preferred weapon as well of course as the symbol of the samurai-class itself.

Also, another question, how common was use of the "normal" spear amongst knights/men-at-arms in the 15 and 16th century? As far as I know, it was almost completly dropped in favour of the pollaxe and halberd by this time.

[Michael Curl]

Rapiers and sabers are not anti-armor weapons. While sabers can be used against an armored opponent I'm sure, rapiers are civilian weapons.

[William P]

[Cole B]

[William P]

[Henrik J. Fridh]

Oh I'm sorry gentlemen! I didn't mean to write rapiers! I meant the Estoc of course! A few posts in and I'm already derailing my own threads

Next time I won't watch a movie and write a post at the same time.

EDIT: Also, disregard the sabre part too. A better question would perhaps be why the Samurai did not adopt maces or warhammers? I can not really find any evidence that suggests that clubs (such as the kanabo or tetsubo) or smaller warhammers or maces gained widespread use in the 16th century.

[Daniel Staberg]

[Timo Nieminen]

[William P]

[Lafayette C Curtis]