Arming doublet of the 15th century -- myArmoury.com

Alessio J. Orlandi · Posted: Sun 13 May, 2012 6:59 am Post subject:

Hi! I used to visit this forum long time ago, and now I'm back just to say thanks for all the usefull informations I found here. Here is the reconstruction I made of an italian arming doublet to be worn undern my milanese armour, also following your suggestions here on myArmoury. There are some defects in my reconstruction (it's made only in 4 parts instead of 8, buttons don't look that great and so on...). This is based on the ordinary italian farsetto, but is built to be used in battle. The chest is lined with a dozen of layers of fabric, so that it gets that "busty" shape and provides some more protection. The lower part is reinforced with some layers of strong fabric and now has many eylets (not portraied in this old pics). Also the upper part of the arms are partly reinforced to sustain the weight of the iron arms. The back of the neck is also reinforced and padded too.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/421043_312238498827500_100001240568133_934115_527421806_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/424492_312238712160812_100001240568133_934118_808377461_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/417241_312238642160819_100001240568133_934117_1716481977_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/395754_309862449065105_100001240568133_929274_2049285848_n.jpg

Unluckily I don't have any recent picture with the finished work

Glennan Carnie · Posted: Sun 13 May, 2012 10:24 am Post subject:

Jens Boerner · Posted: Mon 14 May, 2012 7:58 am Post subject:

Way more waist. You whatever you did, you can see the stitches from the interlining(?) on the outside. Ain't historical.

Alessio J. Orlandi · Posted: Tue 15 May, 2012 11:20 am Post subject:

Glennan, in which way should I sort it out? Should I make it more slender or what?

Jens, for what I know there are no clear evidences about how italian arming doublets where made. The whole thing is just an hypothesis. My idea was: it should look more or less like a common civilian doublet, but for sure must be stronger and maybe safer. So I made this kind of crossover between an italian farsetto and a gambeson. That's why stitches are visible. Of course, one could always sew the layers of interlining and THEN cover everything with an exterior, more elegant lining. About the waist, I should more probably lose some weight :P Of course one could "inflate" more the chest, but this thing is to be used under a milanese armour and I need some room to breathe.

Kel Rekuta · Posted: Wed 16 May, 2012 7:51 am Post subject:

Alessio,

Regardless of what the re-enactors have to say, I rather like your farsetto. It may not be as perfect as some people expect but the effort you put into it is commendable. It is exactly the sort of arming coat I am looking for and there are no commercial versions of anything like it available. My vote is well done!

Tölgyes Tamás · Posted: Thu 17 May, 2012 3:54 am Post subject:

Alessio J. Orlandi · Posted: Thu 24 May, 2012 5:31 pm Post subject:

I've seen it, but that really looks bizarre to me... I mean, he must have a really thin waist if you compare it to the hips. I can increase the ratio chest/waist by adding more padding, but there is no way to increase the ratio hips/waist, unless I use a corset.
For a comparison with "everyday" doublets (not arming garments):
Piero della Francesca
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/394755_291381707579846_100001240568133_874381_1529339899_n.jpg

Fra Carnevale???
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/394104_291381870913163_100001240568133_874384_1051608427_n.jpg

Fra Carnevale
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/384952_291381957579821_100001240568133_874385_1893270192_n.jpg

Mantegna
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/407375_291382834246400_100001240568133_874392_2129061440_n.jpg

Pala di S. Ginesio
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alberto82/518215...32758@N02/

Biagio di Antonio Tucci
http://www.flickr.com/photos/repetti/23912778...32758@N02/

Oratorio dei Buonomini di S. Martino (Florence)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_carloni/6...32758@N02/
Arming doublet? Damn, it's hidden by the breastplate and the mail... Sad

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_carloni/6...8774649193

At least in those who look like the less "idealized" portraits, you can see that the ratio hips/waist is not so exagerated (if you can find them, please check also drawings by Pollaiolo and pupills)

Even if these are not arming doublets, I think it's worth to take a look, just to make a comparison with some modern reconstruction by someone who cooperates with museums (can't remember if Paola Fabbri was already cited before)
http://www.paolafabbri.it/prodotti-xv-xvi.asp?form_chiave=14

Aleksei Sosnovski · Posted: Fri 25 May, 2012 6:46 am Post subject:

Alessio, your doublet has some wrinkles/folds at the waist which clearly indicates that there is some free space between it and your body. There should be none. Take a belt or rope and tightly wrap it around your waist. This is how a doublet should be. If it is loose and you attach your leg harness to it the harness will hang on your shoulders tiring you quickly and impairing your freedom of movement. If the doublet is made correctly leg harness should hang on your waist rather than shoulders. This way you can wear leg armor for the whole day without your shoulders and back getting tired.

Alessio J. Orlandi · Posted: Sat 26 May, 2012 2:19 am Post subject:

The waist is actually wrong because there are no lower faulds. There should be a seam around the waist, but I made the doublet in just 4 pieces instead of 8 (now i'm making one in 8 pieces). At the moment I'm using a belt to sustain the harnesses, but I'm thinking of some modifications so that i can attach them to the doublet together with the hoses (I think I'll need a second raw of eyelets).

Lee Burge

Hello All,

I noted that most, if not all of the images of specifically Italian arming doublets come from the first half of the 15th century. Are there any images of Italian arming doublets from the third quarter of the 15th century. Does their construction mimic that of earlier styles or did they become shorter and tighter (especially on the upper arms) as did doublets of more northerly areas of Europe? Thank you, and I look forward to reading any and all replies.

Vale,
Lee Burge
8, Sept 2012

Lee Burge

P.S. I've also noted that Italian doublets seem to have more puffy or baggy upper sleeves, even when the garments are intended for wear under armour, and to support the same. A doublet needs to be snug to the body of the wearer so that the armour worn on top of and attached to it will also fit snugly and be without gaps and not restrict movement while in battle. The idea of wearing arm harness attched to a baggy or loose upper sleeve seems counter to this idea. Could it be that the upper sleeves, as seen on so many Italian arming doublets, are in fact padded and not simply baggy and loose. The lower sleeves certainly seem padded, as there are often visible stitching lines that seem to be holding multiple layers in place on lower sleeves, but could the upper sleeves be so padded as well, perhaps a bit more thickly than the lower sleeve? Thanks again!

Alessio J. Orlandi · Posted: Tue 02 Oct, 2012 5:38 am Post subject:

Actually, everydays doublets (at least in Italy) often display ornamental stitching on the lower arms and faulds. That is probabaly also to give more rigidity to that part of the garment which is not usually padded.
Upper sleeves of italian (civil) doublets are baggy but probably not padded.
My arming doublet (see above) has baggy sleeves but they're not uncomfortable under the armour. Anyway, it seems strange that in Italy there is no trace of specific arming doublets.

Mark Griffin · Posted: Fri 03 May, 2013 8:46 am Post subject:

anyone have any better pics of this Pisanello fresco in the ducal palace in Mantova?

Kel Rekuta · Posted: Fri 03 May, 2013 9:15 am Post subject:

This page is pretty good for Pisanello's various works: http://www.thais.it/speciali/PISANELLO/Pisanello.htm

Most of the image banks have very reasonable prices for educational use of hi-res digital images. I think I paid $35-40 each for a series of fresco images from the Trinci Palazzo. I have a lot of art books with poorer images that I paid WAAAY more for. The detail in hi-res images is well worth the cost.

Anthony Farrow · Posted: Mon 25 Nov, 2013 2:30 pm Post subject:

Mark T · Posted: Mon 25 Nov, 2013 3:08 pm Post subject:

Hi Anthony,

These kinds of observations/theories have been debated a bit.

In practice, it has led to modern suppliers offering a 'pourpoint' (such as this one from Gwen Nowrick / Black Swan Designs / Historic Enterprises).

I seem to recall a thread over at The Armour Archive, which seemed to end with a general position of 'we're not quite sure if they existed, or what they looked like, but we need something to solve this problem, so we'll use them, even if they're not historically demonstrable' ... if you do a search over there for 'pourpoint', you'll probably track it down.

I'm not sure what the latest consensus is, though - like you, I'd love to know!

Anthony Farrow · Posted: Mon 25 Nov, 2013 11:41 pm Post subject:

Blaz Berlec · Posted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 7:53 am Post subject:

DE MAJESTATE
Giuniano Maio - Nardo Rapicano
Naploli 1492
DETTAGLIO FOLIO 29
Ferdinando I d'Aragona prende possesso di Volterra, davanti a lui un messo porta presenta la resa della città.

Although there are no obvious points or other means of attachment, I think this image shows late 15th century Italian arming garments - doublet or farsetto has maille skirt attached to it, and over that is giornea.

Interestingly, and a bit off topic, there's another maille skirt showing from under breastplate, which explains the "double layer of maille", which is sometimes shown in art, and which was proposed to be explained as whole hauberk under plate + skirt. This picture also shows attached skirt to the breastplate and backplate:

Dijon - BM - ms. 0493, folio 193v. Vergil. Opera. Parigi, fine XV sec.
Opera: Eclogae seu Bucolica/Georgica/Aeneis
Autore: Virgilio
Episodio: Enea rende omaggio a Marte con le armi di Massenzio.
[copyright: Enluminures - Institut de recherche et d'histoire des textes - CNRS]
Ministère de la culture

But to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat:

Poema Hesperis, folio 45v (MS 630, Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal, Paris, 1460 c.), scene depicting the camp of Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta. The text, by Basinio from Parma narrates the deeds performed by the leader of Rimini in 1448 and in 1453 against Alfonso and Ferdinand of Aragon.

This image shows what looks to be a guy putting maille hauberk over his doublet and maille skirt. Happy

I found the explanations and artwork on this forum: http://www.villaggiomedievale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3379

Vincent Haure · Posted: Thu 03 Jul, 2014 1:42 pm Post subject:

Great! Thanks a lot Blaz for those pics!

Randall Moffett · Posted: Thu 03 Jul, 2014 4:21 pm Post subject:

Blaz,

They sure seem pretty clear in showing specific under garments for armour. Since doublets are often recorded with plate harnesses I think these are the most likely candidates.

I am not sure you can assume that one imagine with a mail skirt attached to the cuirass means that all references in literature of wearing a full harness and hauberk are invalid. I think the best you can say is that this seems to have been done.

I do think that these all look super late and I'd be surprised if it were still common to wear more than mail attachments to supplement plate by this point. The latest I know in literature for the harness and full hauberk is Monstrelet who goes until mid 15th.I know of no evidence after that.

RPM