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Mackenzie Cosens
Location: Vancouver Canada Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 238
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Mark Shier
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Fri 18 May, 2012 3:53 pm Post subject: armour and weapons |
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Lots of variety in helmets, including a klappvisor bascinet.
As well, there is a two handed Mac-Bible chopper in the bottom right corner of the first image.
Gaukler Medieval Wares
http://www.medievalwares.com
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Fri 18 May, 2012 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Its in David Niccole's two volume book on medieval Eurasian arms. I've never seen a colour photo!
The kit looks early 14th century to me. Lots of mail and small reinforcing plates, and no houndskull visors; the crossbows look self or composite to me and have no visible spanning device. The rowers are naked in the old sense except for their pot helms.
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Jojo Zerach
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| Posted: Fri 18 May, 2012 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Manning wrote: | Its in David Niccole's two volume book on medieval Eurasian arms. I've never seen a colour photo!
The kit looks early 14th century to me. Lots of mail and small reinforcing plates, and no houndskull visors; the crossbows look self or composite to me and have no visible spanning device. The rowers are naked in the old sense except for their pot helms. |
I think in Italy, mail was more popular to a later date than it was in England or France.
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional
Location: Chicago, IL USA Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Sat 19 May, 2012 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Italian fresco of late 14th early 15th C naval battle? |
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Mackenzie,
One of my all time favorite images, since seeing it in an Osprey book long ago.
The frustrating thing is that no image I have seen really does it justice: this covers two walls and the individual figures range in size but are often over a foot tall! I was astounded when I saw it. The bad part was that no photography is allowed, and after searching through every museo gift shop and book store in the old city of Sienna, I could not find a single decent reproduction of the sala! Grrr....
The image is definitely late 14th c. There are some interesting commonalities of artistic style with two of the dei Liberi manuscripts (how the faces are rendered, etc) which links them to a late Siennese school. Another example are the brimmed bascinets/early celate. A wealth of goodies here. One obvious example: notice the clear use of fingering the cross when thrusting.
Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com
www.freelanceacademypress.com
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Kel Rekuta
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| Posted: Sat 19 May, 2012 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, you'd think one of the photo art libraries would have at least some of the mural detail in for sale in decent resolution... but no. Very frustrating, isn't it? I wonder if it may have been studied in some Renaissance art book. I have a handful but there are hundreds out there. 
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Mackenzie Cosens
Location: Vancouver Canada Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 238
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sun 20 May, 2012 6:05 am Post subject: |
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As far as equipment goes it is very likely that many of these gents, especially the ones in lighter armour are pedes, or footmen. Their still fairly well equipped for the place they were supposed to fulfill but not men-at-arms. My guess is gents equipped like this could be found in many places in Europe for the time frame it was created in.
Further it is likely that sailors, mariners and such often fought in lighter gear, as pedes did on land usually. Most of the inventories I have seen for English equivalents simply are in aketons and bascinets for most with some in the same plus gauntlets of iron and pairs of plates.
I do wonder if somethings like the possible great helm are simply used for IDing some one as seems a problem to fight in a confined space like this with one on.
RPM
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Neil Melville
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| Posted: Sun 20 May, 2012 8:23 am Post subject: |
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According to what I've read Spinello painted this fresco in 1407-8, in the Palazzo Pubblico in Siena in honour of Pope Alexander III who was Sienese. The oddity is that the battle (Punta San Salvatore) which it allegedly commemorates, between Papal/Venetian and Imperial forces, never actually took place. It was painted for diplomatic purposes - to give the Pope a bit of glory, even if fictitious! But marvellous evidence for Italian arms and armour of c.1400.
Neil
N Melville
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Sun 20 May, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | As far as equipment goes it is very likely that many of these gents, especially the ones in lighter armour are pedes, or footmen. Their still fairly well equipped for the place they were supposed to fulfill but not men-at-arms. My guess is gents equipped like this could be found in many places in Europe for the time frame it was created in.
Further it is likely that sailors, mariners and such often fought in lighter gear, as pedes did on land usually. Most of the inventories I have seen for English equivalents simply are in aketons and bascinets for most with some in the same plus gauntlets of iron and pairs of plates.
I do wonder if somethings like the possible great helm are simply used for IDing some one as seems a problem to fight in a confined space like this with one on.
RPM |
I agree that many of the soldiers are probable pedites not milites, but even leaders (like the man with the red surcoat, top row centre- Barbarossa?) have a few small plates laced over mail for arm harness and no houndskull bascinets. So I still suspect that if this was painted in 1407, the author tried to use old-fashioned armour for a battle several centuries ago (even if "old fashioned" was what fashionable Italians wore in the 1360s and 1370s).
Compare Lippo Vani's picture of the Battle of Sinalunga, which was probably done in the 1360s or 1370s. There are more complete arm harnesses, and some great helms that may be visored like in the second row, lower right of Spinello's painting. Or that Arthurian romance from Milan which is now in the Bibliotheque Nationale de France. Of course, both are focused on rich milites not militia and marines!
Its also interesting that each side has a consistent shield device: either the imperial eagle or what I guess are the arms of Venice. Is that just an artistic convention, or did states like Venice have the resources to make people paint their shields a particular way?
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Jonathon Janusz
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| Posted: Sun 20 May, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Manning wrote: | So I still suspect that if this was painted in 1407, the author tried to use old-fashioned armour for a battle several centuries ago (even if "old fashioned" was what fashionable Italians wore in the 1360s and 1370s).
Compare Lippo Vani's picture of the Battle of Sinalunga, which was probably done in the 1360s or 1370s. There are more complete arm harnesses, and some great helms that may be visored like in the second row, lower right of Spinello's painting. Or that Arthurian romance from Milan which is now in the Bibliotheque Nationale de France. Of course, both are focused on rich milites not militia and marines! |
I would offer this link to an Italian effigy, dated 1405, showing similarity to the great helm wearers in the painting. Considering that it is a coin toss as to whether the effigy would represent a person at the time of death, or in the prime of their life, I would hope it at least keeps us in the ballpark of the very turn of the century. Further, I would suggest that it gives us an indication that, aside from the differences in helms, the body defenses shown look to scale all the way up the social classes in the Italian context?
http://www.effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/niccolo_benedetti/
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional
Location: Chicago, IL USA Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Sun 20 May, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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also, just walking through Sienna and its region of Tuscany you see the same style of arms and armour in late 14th artwork in the Duomo and the various art museums. This is not the height of c.1400 harness, but I don't think it is meant to be old-fashioned at all. Certainly, I wouldn't use the lighter arm harness as proof, since even in the mid-15th C it is common to see fully armoured knights in Italy without pauldrons, or wearing a simple couter-vambrace.
Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com
www.freelanceacademypress.com
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sun 20 May, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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So just a quick look.
The gents who can be IDed clearly for arm armour-
16 full arms
13 partial (couter at least but often a vambrace or rerebrace as well)
12 only with mail
so out of 41 clearly displayed 29 are with some plate defense and over half have the majority of their arms covered with plate armour over the mail.
There are a load of men who only have a part of the arm showing that are excluded or no arm showing.
RPM
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Mon 21 May, 2012 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | So just a quick look.
The gents who can be IDed clearly for arm armour-
16 full arms
13 partial (couter at least but often a vambrace or rerebrace as well)
12 only with mail
so out of 41 clearly displayed 29 are with some plate defense and over half have the majority of their arms covered with plate armour over the mail.
There are a load of men who only have a part of the arm showing that are excluded or no arm showing.
RPM |
Still, the upper arm defenses are usually a plate strapped over mail that protects one side of the arm. In the 1400s I would expect to see a two-piece hinged rerebrace, often with a short mail sleeve hanging over it. And the helmets still worry me. You and Greg have been looking at late 14th century stuff longer and harder than I have, but the arm defenses still feel older than the Pistoia Altarpiece or Lippo Vanni's Battle of Sinalunga, both from around 1370, let alone Jacopo Cavali's effigy or BNF Francais 343 or the three early Fiore MSS. But it may just be that this picture focusses on militia and the poorer half of the men at arms, whereas effigies and illuminations tend to focus on the rich.
Although its not directly comparable, since he doesn't have an "Italy" section and doesn't distinguish between types of plate defense, Doug Strong's figures suggest that 95-100% of effigies from 1370 to 1410 have plate upper arms. David Niccole (Medieval Warfare Sourcebook, Vol. I p. 211) felt that something was odd about the armour here too.
Edit: I also notice that his photo there is a completely different part of this fresco ...
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional
Location: Chicago, IL USA Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Mon 21 May, 2012 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Hi Sean,
I do suspect that the subject matter - a naval battle of common soldiers - is a part of what is impacting what we see, as is locale - Sienna vs. Lombardy. You can clearly see differences in Neapolitan fashions and northern Italian, and likewise we see a greater emphasis on heavy cavalry in Lombardian art over Tuscan, again perhaps (note the qualifier!) reflecting the artists perception of their local armies. I say perception since, in reality, by 1400 Tuscan armies are primarily condottieri, not city militia, anyway, and they would be armed according to their own internal needs.
Certainly, as I said, there is a bias toward wearing only a left should defense or nothing over the mail, amongst Italian knights even into the mid-15th c that does not seem to be reflected in English and French sources.
If you showed me this image and I didn't know what it was, I'd say "Italian, c.1370s or 80s". But after wandering around Tuscany, it seems fairly consistent with c.1400 - as long as we assume take in the caveat of the subject matter.
Regardless, it is a stunning fresco.
Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com
www.freelanceacademypress.com
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Mon 21 May, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Manning wrote: |
Its also interesting that each side has a consistent shield device: either the imperial eagle or what I guess are the arms of Venice. Is that just an artistic convention, or did states like Venice have the resources to make people paint their shields a particular way? |
It is a little bit of both. I am not sure it is a matter of resources, but how armies were equipped and the practice of heraldry. Heraldry wasn't much developed in Fredrick's time, but it he did use the eagle, but he is also known for using a red banner with a white flag. I am not sure how the Venetian or Imperial armed forces would have been recruited and equipped/supplied. Mercenaries and temporary allies would have provided their own equipment with their own devices on it. As would have knights and their retainers. However, troops that directly served the Emperor would use his device, and similarly the Venetian militia may have customarily put the Venetian lion on their shields. Interestingly enough most depictions of medieval battles don't show persons wearing coats of arms and heraldic shields
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Mon 21 May, 2012 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Sean,
We cannot use effigies to compare to art in this way. Art as in this case is not showing knights, likely it is showing a mix of men-at-arms, footmen and sailors- the last two groups not likely being full equipped. So where as a knight might be in full armour head to toe perhaps this is not what we are seeing here. Footmen would be unlikely to be armed as well as a knight.
RPM
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This is a standard topic