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Gary Teuscher
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 Posted: Fri 18 May, 2012 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What helmet design do you think best balanced the various needs of the person wearing it? |
I think one big issue here as well is you are talking about a pretty lengthy time period. It's a bit like asking what was the best Tank of WWII - The original T-34 with a two man turret and short barrel 76mm was the best at the time it cam out - but it could not compare well to later tanks like the Panther or the IS3.
So do you mean for it's time with the helmet? Or the best overall, in which case later period helms did a good job solving the combination of protection vs. Visibility and heat.
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Fri 18 May, 2012 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary Teuscher wrote: | | So do you mean for it's time with the helmet? Or the best overall, in which case later period helms did a good job solving the combination of protection vs. Visibility and heat. |
I meant the best overall, from roughly 800 to 1500. That certainly favors late medieval helms, though many of those must have had vision and ventilation problems.
However, if people want to divide it up into groups by time or weapon types impacting them, thats OK with me.
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Scott Woodruff
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| Posted: Fri 18 May, 2012 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Ultimtely it comes down to personal preference based on training, physique, personal idiosyncracies etc. I personally vote for the eisenhut/sallet and bevor combo. The first time I wore one, I was extremely impressed by the enginneering. Comfortable, good visibility and airflow, but what most impressed me was how the set-up worked with the natural flinch response, as soon as somone struck or thrust at my face, the flinch response would have me withdrawing back between the helmet and bevor like a turtle into its shell, giving me excellent protection but able to emerge back into good situational awareness in a fraction of a second. Most SCA fighters I know, on the other hand, would not be able to use such a set-up so effectively due to their training with heavy, all-encompassing helmets and atrophied flinch response.
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Sat 19 May, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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How would you folks rate the Great Bascinet from the first half of the 15th century? It looks like it gives great protection, and is well ventilated, but I'm not sure about how good the field of vision might be. The third photo, the reprduction from Buyans Armoury, looks like it has better eye slits
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From Buyans Armoury, Ukraine
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Antonio Ganarini
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| Posted: Wed 23 May, 2012 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Antonio Ganarini wrote: | What do you think of a helm like this? It could be a good compromise...
I could not find an original one, but just to throw in this idea...!
(  I've edited this post because of its bad bad bad english... I'm not sure it's ok now, but I'm doing my best!) |
A small, bothersome doubt: IS that helmet ACTUALLY HISTORICAL in some way? 
I wouldn't be surprised to hear a simple NO, but I don't have enough knowledge to judge it!
Ciao a tutti!
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Thomas R.
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| Posted: Wed 23 May, 2012 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark T wrote: |
Me too:
- visor gives flexibility depending on what kind of context/fighting one's in (and visor when up gives added sun protection)
- they're sexy
- sallet + bevor still allows good air flow
- 'German' sallet tail gives good protection from arrows
- chicks dig 'em
- wide occularia gives good field of vision
- design allows for easy head rotation
- they're sexy
- gentle flare out to base leads blows away from body
- longitudinal riser / 'fin' on top plays havoc with blade edges
... oh, and did I mention they're sexy? |
You forgot to mention, that Schallern can be used for roadbiking! And, obviously, sie sind sexy!
http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
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Mackenzie Cosens
Location: Vancouver Canada Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Wed 23 May, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Since most of the time you will be on the march or waiting for something to happen so I vote for something that will keep the rain and sun off you head and won't be too heavy or get in the way too much, I vote for the veritable Chapeau de Fer, the most wonderful Kettle Hat. Protecting soldier heads from sometime in the 12th century until at least 1945.
mackenzie
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 23 May, 2012 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Eye Slot Kettle Hat: Bought this one from Valentine Armoury a few years ago.
As explained in an earlier post I think that this is a very good helm and one can wear it tilted back and when " turtleling " a glance upward lets one still see what is going on.
The other option is to wear it strait but this restrict vision a bit more, but surprisingly little as the angle of the brim means that there is only a narrow blockage of vision below the eye slot because of the inclined angle of the sloping surface of the wide brim.
Tried to take a pic of this seen from the inside of the helm in one of the pics..  
Note: The eyes when wearing the helm are much closer to the eye slots than where the camera was when taking the pics from the inside so that the " narrow " eye slots " gives a much wider view than shown in the pics. 
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You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Sjors B
Location: Zevenaar, The Netherlands Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2012 2:47 am Post subject: |
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my choise for most efficient helmet would go to the grand bascinet as wel.
15th c examples have been found, having three visors for different purposes: jousting, melee combat and foot combat.
The helmet could be easily adjusted to the goal of the moment.
The jousting visor has a very narrow gab giving maximum protection to the face, both for incoming blows and spinters while the melee visor, consisting of metal bars gives more vision and strong protection against clubs. The foot combat visor is punctured with a lot of holes, giving the idea of a fencing mask.
What i most prefer about the grand bascinet is that it's attached to the breastplate, making it virtually immovable and allowing it to deflect even the hardest of blows.
Below a picture of the grand bascinet with three visors, displayed in the royal armouries in leeds (sorry for the poor quality)
number one of the most funny helmets i've ever seen, also on display in the royal armouries:
16th c maximilian moustache helmet
member of the langenort school for European martial arts in Nijmegen (NL)
http://www.historicalshows.com/
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Sam Gordon Campbell
Location: Australia. Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 678
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2012 3:35 am Post subject: Re: What was the most efficient Medieval Helm? |
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| Roger Hooper wrote: | | What helmet design do you think best balanced the various needs of the person wearing it? |
Hands down the chapel-de-fer/kettle style. From the Ancient Greek Boeotion up to the 20th Century Brodie Helmet the style proved to be cost effective, protective, and adaptable.
Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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William P
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2012 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Eye Slot Kettle Hat: Bought this one from Valentine Armoury a few years ago.
As explained in an earlier post I think that this is a very good helm and one can wear it tilted back and when " turtleling " a glance upward lets one still see what is going on.
The other option is to wear it strait but this restrict vision a bit more, but surprisingly little as the angle of the brim means that there is only a narrow blockage of vision below the eye slot because of the inclined angle of the sloping surface of the wide brim.
Tried to take a pic of this seen from the inside of the helm in one of the pics..
Note: The eyes when wearing the helm are much closer to the eye slots than where the camera was when taking the pics from the inside so that the " narrow " eye slots " gives a much wider view than shown in the pics. |
hmmm, that helmet seems very familier, i wonder where ive seen THAT look before
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_NQjP17YsdkE/TR8N2GY...G_0004.JPG
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_z2d4IxltHJI/TIElSet...nArmor.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/64955660@N08/592...otostream/
oh, yes, thats right, :P
this was a war hat i tried n that a friend of mine had and note the collapsible bevor worn underneath.
adding that simple bevore means you are extemely secure
even with a normal kettle hat,
actually id like to add one more addition to the powers of the kettle hat which fixes one of its only major flaws, an exposed face
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/static/miniat...l/5-18.jpg the holkham bible shows these war hats with what is quite clearly a bevor of some sort.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/holkham-bible/164/
one friend of mine also notd his favorite helmet was the pikemans morion. for similar reasons to all the others aka, good field of vision, etc
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german footsoldiers from the classic 1938 russian movie, alexander nevsky
while its clear the drector was partly sending a message comparing the german soldiers to nazis bygiving te sldiers helmets that had a huge resemblence to stahlhelms bu it seems th
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german slotted war hat from a friends house, along with his bevor, (i call this one the octapus helmet since itsomehow reminds me of squdsand octapus the waythe base flares out)
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Terry Thompson
Location: Suburbs of Wash D.C. Joined: 17 Sep 2010
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2012 10:22 am Post subject: |
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In the Holkham bible, I'm thinking those aren't bevors on the kettles but loose mail drapes. There appears to be a fold in it, and the blue color matches the mailled arms and legs specificially. But I'm not disagreeing with the advantages of kettles.
-Terry
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2012 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Terry Thompson wrote: | In the Holkham bible, I'm thinking those aren't bevors on the kettles but loose mail drapes. There appears to be a fold in it, and the blue color matches the mailled arms and legs specificially. But I'm not disagreeing with the advantages of kettles.
-Terry |
I think that although a Bevor is the ideal accessory for a Kettle Hat as far as coverage is concerned they can be used without them when more lightly armoured, and a Bevor can be awkward to use for a foot soldier having to run a lot and be agile: Hard to see your feet and one might break an ankle or trip not seeing a hole in the ground, a rock or tree root.
The Bevor does make a lot of sense for a Knight on horse back as many blows might come from below.
A good alternate is to wear a coif or maille standard with a Kettlehat and I also find that a wide and deep Gorget makes " turtleling " very effective but is less " confining " than a Bevor. One can also combine in earlier periods a coif + a Gorget worn either over or under the coif. ( If some " smaller " Gorget where at times worn under a coif it might be difficult to see in period art as the Gorget could be hidden by the coif ...... note, mostly speculation on my part based on pieces of my various armour pieces and personal observations trying different combinations of layering of parts. ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2012 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Here is another kettle helm with bevor. You get good ventilation, good vision, and good, but not great facial protection. I'd want a kettle hat with rounded edges like the one below - no right angles.
One problem with a bevor - I remember a story about Lord Dacre getting killed at the Battle of Towton when he took off his bevor to drink a thirst quenching glass of wine. While it was off he was struck in the throat by an arrow. Too bad bendable straws weren't invented yet.
Maybe Jean's alternative in the above thread would work out better in a case like that.
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Paul Hansen
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2012 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Paul Hansen wrote: | I'm a bit surprised nobody yet mentioned the Barbute.
- Excellent visibility
- Excellent ventilation
- Extremely solid due to the lack of moving parts
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Yes I agree that the Barbute is a very good option and I would add a low centre of gravity: Some helms are tall with a high centre of gravity and are more tiring for extended wear, also if hit a high centre of gravity might put the neck more at risk of damage if one gets a solid hit high on the helm.
A lot of the closed helms may be very good, if one is going to be fighting right away, but they are stuffy and prone to overheating and must be removed often to cool the head or drink some water to avoid heat stroke, hence the popularity of various Kettlehats or " Chappel de Fer ". The later Morion, Cabasset and Morion/Cabasset are just evolutions of the earlier steel hats.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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William P
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2012 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger Hooper wrote: | Here is another kettle helm with bevor. You get good ventilation, good vision, and good, but not great facial protection. I'd want a kettle hat with rounded edges like the one below - no right angles.
One problem with a bevor - I remember a story about Lord Dacre getting killed at the Battle of Towton when he took off his bevor to drink a thirst quenching glass of wine. While it was off he was struck in the throat by an arrow. Too bad bendable straws weren't invented yet.
Maybe Jean's alternative in the above thread would work out better in a case like that. |
what you have there is a spanish veriant, and in all likelihood the predecessor to the morion
its called a cabbaset, and that form of bevor is unique to the use of the cabbaset
with regards to bevors and throat safety
the bevor i have in the photo of me, you'll note it has breathes and its why bevors were quite often articulated
you can often drop the upper part of the bevor that covers the lower jaw and mouth, which means you can take a drink, and your throat and sternum you will note are still covered in the photo of me wearing the slot visored war hat. you can see the
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Kalle Kylmänen
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| Posted: Fri 25 May, 2012 4:07 am Post subject: |
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I think I'm identifying the chapel de fer in Roger Hoopers post as the Burgundian one from the metropolitan museum of art
http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/armures/helmy/he19v2.jpg
Cabassets remind me of a helmet a local sca knight has. I think it was made by Jiri Klepac... It was a cabasset morion with cheeckplates and a matching bevor that had a very sharp angle at the front, matching the angle of the morion's brim. Even more, the bevor had eyeslits. I didn't try the thing on back then, but I think if the bevor would be a bit loose (not directly contacting the helmet all the time) it would provide pretty good visibility, and almost complete protection if bending back (or turtleing as Jean said). Compared to a low brimmed kettlehat with eyeslits, this solution would have a plate passing back and forth over your eyes causing the wearer to loose sight for a moment, and I think it might also impair breathing just a bit more.
I'm sorry for not having pictures of such a bevor but I have never seen anything like it anywhere else, so I'm not 100% convinced it's historically accurate.
edited instead of posting: by it's fit and the eyeslits it resembles a buffe, but it was a completely seperate piece that didn't attach to the helmet itself.
Last edited by Kalle Kylmänen on Sun 27 May, 2012 4:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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William P
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| Posted: Fri 25 May, 2012 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Kalle Kylmänen wrote: | I think I'm identifying the chapel de fer in Roger Hoopers post as the Burgundian one from the metropolitan museum of art
http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/armures/helmy/he19v2.jpg
Cabassets remind me of a helmet a local sca knight has. I think it was made by Jiri Klepac... It was a cabasset morion with cheeckplates and a matching bevor that had a very sharp angle at the front, matching the angle of the morion's brim. Even more, the bevor had eyeslits. I didn't try the thing on back then, but I think if the bevor would be a bit loose (not directly contacting the helmet all the time) it would provide pretty good visibility, and almost complete protection if bending back (or turtleing as Jean said). Compared to a low brimmed kettlehat with eyeslits, this solution would have a plate passing back and forth over your eyes causing the wearer to loose sight for a moment, and I think it might also impair breathing just a bit more.
I'm sorry for not having pictures of such a bevor but I have never seen anything like it anywhere else, so I'm not 100% convinced it's historically accurate. |
it sounds alot like a falling buff.
they were used alot with the burgonet http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_burgonet.html
oh and speaking of brodie helms
http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-1808-wwi-experimental-helmet.aspx
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William P
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| Posted: Thu 14 Jun, 2012 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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bu i think i have another canddate although is no really a medieval helm as such.
but the roman gallic model helmet is a very good design IMHO
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/helmets.html
things in is favor: it has dedicated cheek pieces which sem to be designed to specifically not obstruct your vision,
actually it reminds me of the chin defense of one of the vendel helmets.
no nasal so not much actual face protection.
the brim keeps downward strokes from slicing the nose on the way down.
but other plus's, a wide neck guard for the back of the neck, also the cheek pieces ingeniously protect the ears. the small strips over the top over the tops of the ears are a good protective measure.
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