[Benjamin H. Abbott]

The one-handed katzbalger swords with rounded points intrigue. Why did the Germans favor cutting blades for pikemen when military authors such Fourquevaux suggested only the thrust on the battlefield? Do any instructions for employing these weapons in the press exist?

[Andreas Becht]

I visited the Klingenmuseum in Solingen yesterday. I thought I'd share my pics of the Katzbalgers that were on display. It was almost impossible to take photos, because it was so sunny and that didn't go well with all the glass.
The museum is well worth a visit.

[Andreas Becht]

[Stephen Curtin]

Benjamin, I've often thought the same thing about the cutting nature of katzbalgers, I would think that a thrusting or cut and thrust type would serve a pikeman better.

Andreas, thanks for those pics, their great.

[Stephen Curtin]

I've seen examples of katzbalgers from as late the 1560s, does everyone here know of any datable examples from later than this? Does anyone know when they fell out of fashion? For that matter, when exactly did the landsknecht cease to exist?

[Thomas R.]

Hi Stephen,
it's a common misunderstanding, that Katzbalgers were no good at thrusting. In fact their rounded points were sharp and suitable for stabbing, like a roman gladius - plus the point won't get stuck in shields or armor. In between a mass of angry pikemen a short blade as the katzbalgers comes very handy, while a longsword is just too long for fighting between all those lances and staffweapons. I recommend the spanish movie "Alatriste" in which such a fighting is portrayed very realistic (crouching beneath the entangled pikes and slitting the enemies sinews included!)

Thomas

[Kurt Scholz]

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/files/katzbalger008_205.jpg

looks very much like a modern federschwert with the configuration of the fuller.

[Ken Jay]

[Thomas R.]

Hi Ken,

have a look at this youtube scene taken from "Alatriste". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26C758K4Fc0 As far as I read about Landsknechts & Co this seems to me as a quite realistic depiction of such a battle.

Have fun,
Thomas

[Sean Flynt]

Some quick thoughts:

Consider the design challenge. You want a weapon short enough that it can be worn, drawn and used in a densely-packed environment. If you taper that short blade to an effective thrusting point, it might not have enough blade presence to deliver the immediately debilitating wounds--severed tendons, muscles, outright amputations--that are more valuable both to the individual soldier delivering them as well as to the commanders viewing the bigger picture of the course of battle.

This is not only modern speculation. Silver said exactly this in his dismissal of narrow thrust-oriented weapons for field use.

Another argument against an acute point is that there's less plate armour on the field in this period. You don't need a long, narrow point to exploit gaps in plate. Your enemy might turn away a thrust or otherwise dodge it. I would think it's harder to stop or dodge a hard slashing blow without some degree of injury.

It might be worthwhile to consider the class status of these men, too. If they had any experience with edged weapons prior to enlisting, it was most likely brawling with knives and daggers of various sizes. You can't scale-up daggers to sword length and use the same techniques you'd use with a short dagger, but a man used to cutting up his friends with a large messer might feel comfortable with a short, broad slashing weapon. If my life were on the line, I'd certainly choose the weapon and associated techniques I know best. On the other hand, if this is true I don't know why the Landsknecht didn't all carry large fighting knives instead of swords. Maybe the additional edge was considered important enough to compromise on that.

[Benjamin H. Abbott]

Alatriste shows what Sir John Smythe considered the wrong way of employing pikes in the field: standing at distance and thrusting. However, both Smythe's disapproving account and others suggest pikemen did fight in such fashion at times.

While I imagine a rounded tip could give an effective thrust under the right circumstances, the design obviously favors the cut. In this respect it differed from the swords used by other pikemen. For example, sixteenth-century military writer William Garrard explicitly recommended a "sharp pointed sword" for the field. Fourquevaux counseled only the thrust. Smythe advocated both cut and thrust from swords with blades ranged from 27 to 36 inches. Various late sixteenth- and early seventh-century sources suggested three feet as a good blade length, but one noted that the tight press often makes only daggers serviceable.

[Stephen Curtin]

Thanks Sean this makes quite alot of sense about why katz were shaped the way they were. And Thomas' point about the thrusting ability of rounded tips also makes sense, I remember once seeing a show hosted by Mike Loades called, weapons that made britain, well he tested some different types of blades being tested on a block of clay, and both the Oakeshott type X and type XVIII performed almost identically in the thrust as well as the cut.

[Stephen Curtin]

If you follow this link you'll see some nice examples http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?...&pp=30 (hope it's alright to link to another forum) I haven't had a chance to look through all of it but there might be something in there pertainant to this discussion.

[Ken Jay]

Good movies, educated guesses, and trusts to modeling clay aside, I still feel form dictates function. If you have a rounded point it's a better cutter than thruster - on average. Let's give the old armorers some credit - they knew how to make thrusting, cutting, and duel purpose blades. Just my two cents...

[Dan Mackison]

I know very little about katzbalgers and appreciate all the info here. I noticed some weapons listed as "possibly too long to be considered a katzbalger". What would be considered a typical length? I only know they were generally short swords.

[Jimi Edmonds]

I had thought the katzblager to be an ugly little sword, but after reading through this thread and seeing the different types in the pictures, it has changed my thoughts on the little buggers and now I wouldn't mind one!

[Dan Mackison]

[Chad Arnow]

[Nathan Robinson]

There are a bunch of lengths listed in this very topic; certainly enough to give a sense of the size of the weapons in question.

[Stephen Curtin]

Heres a link (taken from a recent post by J.D. Crawford) to a later period katz looks pretty much exactly what I was looking for when I started this thread. It could be interpreted as a link between the katzbalger and the later germanic baskethilts.

http://moteur.musenor.com/application/moteur_...vre=394771