[Jean Thibodeau]

[David Lewis Smith]

I am a paratrooper and grew up in the 82nd Airborne, still am Airborne but SpecOps Not a Green Beret I do something else., Jean, it’s a Canopy release assembly, reach up with thumb and forefinger and pull down the safety clip, form a fist with thumb extended place though wire loop reach up with the opposite hand to assist and pull down sounding off with “Riser”! Heh, you should remember.
I have gone to schools that train to get through the tunnel vision and having the adrenaline monkey on your back. The schools use the old “pain consequence training” that is, if you mess up you feel Lots of pain, heh. Paint ball is fun but when they paint balls are cranked up to 450 feet per second and you have a eye full of pepper spray and a 150lbs manikin to drag to a building with limited cover and ammo to shot back, its not fun. I had a blue tattoo I never wanted that I got through a ACU top in my upper arm from that.
It is hard to achieve the zone in training of any kind because there is no ‘I am going to die if I mess this up’ thought in the back of your head (My theory at least). That is one of the reasons I like training with different ‘wasters’ steel or aluminum, then hard wood and after that bamboo. Bamboo HURTS, but the chance of killing someone is nil. The zone can be created artificially
Anyhow back to the book, covering ‘The Zone’ would speak deeply to people that have been ‘there’ and would open up that window to people that have not. Describing it in a way that people understand,

[Randall Moffett]

I do not see 50 yards as ridiculous for an archer at war. There are hundreds of accounts that indicate short distance shooting. That was the entire point of things like men at arms, infantry for melee and obstacles such as stakes and thickets.hedges. Keep the enemy away. And with protection like this I figure they could get quite a few off, especially if as in Bakers account they keep loosing arrows into the gents amassing behind those who have engaged. Some may even have been loosing them from the main rank og men at arms as there is a quick mention of what may be this tactic at Agincourt in Gesta. This would be just like drills done by Burgundy half a century later and give extreme proximity to the armoured men.


David,

Glad that everything turned out in that situation. Several of my friends had similar experiences at similar points. I think you are right in that it would not really be an issue if they were trained, which seems to have been the case for most knights. Just like today, in the past we see the use of obstacles to counter ones enemies. The English actually get a good reputation on a large scale using such preparations of the field and control of enemy movement.


RPM

[Tom King]

So no ones brought up the humble dagger yet i see. The dagger is probably one of the best bets for the Freeman strain of the discussion. Long bladed thrusting daggers were used in most periods of medieval and renaissance history and have a good track record at taking down knights.

As a primary weapon your characters main focus would be to avoid the enemies sword, then get within his guard and go for a weak spot such as the groin, arm pit, neck, etc. with some grappling and such thrown in for theatrical and historical measure. If your character is a bit higher up the social ladder and is not really outfitted for war, sword and buckler with the ever present belt dagger is a good solution. Ring the enemy knights bell, then go on for the kill with the trusty long knife.

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Matthew Amt]

Right, grappling, wrestling, and fighting with knives are things knights do for *fun* after a long day of training with every other weapon in the arsenal. You have to assume they are *good* at it. So just waltzing inside their guard, whanging them on the head, and then sticking a dagger into whatever "weak" spot you like is not going to be that easily done if the knight is conscious and functional.

I'm getting the impression that people may be thinking that an armored knight can be tricked or caught off-guard in any number of ways. But it seems to me that if he is *armored* he is already expecting trouble, and will be looking for it. I would not assume that he is a tactical cretin, and so arrogant as to assume that any potential opponent is, as well. And I don't think that would make a good character in a story, eh?

Matthew

[Timo Nieminen]

[Jean Thibodeau]

To agree with Timo, just opinion but I sort of think it does make sense that close range shooting would be useful as long as one had some way of slowing down and impeding the close range approach of an enemy force, as I've mentioned before.

Long range is for arrow storms where individual targets are not aimed at but the sheer numbers of arrows in the air degrade and demoralize the opponents: if you get 100,000 arrows into the air even 1% of effective hits, means 1000 dead or seriously wounded and if the army facing you numbers 10,000 that a 10% casualty rate before they even come close.

At close range and extreme close range this is where being able to consistently being able to hit a playing card or a quarter pays off in aiming for and hitting gaps in the armour or even piecing some of the weaker elements of the armour: Sort of distracting if 3 or 4 archers are all aiming at the ocular of your helm visor and an open face becomes suicidal !

And we are talking about archers generally supported by Billmen and/or dismounted men-at -arm + any field improvised obstacles or good use of terrain.

Oh, add in some heavy crossbows capable of piercing all but the best plate and you have an interesting use of combined arms.

[Randall Moffett]

Timo,

That is not what I was saying. Dan had said he did not think these ranges, 50 yards and closer, realistic. I am sure closer is better for penetration and likelihood of casualties. That was my point. I think Jean more or less explains European archery as I see it. Start hundreds out with long distance arrows for control and to whittle down the enemy and as they get closer they begin to perhaps do less directional shooting for marks.

Tom,

If a commoners with a dagger without armour and extensive training went to fight a knight fully armoured and trained on his own he'd almost undoubted be dead. Commoners rely on numbers and hefty weapons to fight knights. Now if he used said dagger when the knight was asleep or knocked out that is entirely another story.

Knights are trained fighters. The elite of their day. They would carve, bash and destroy a man silly enough to try something like that unless the man was using some further strategy. Though you always have the exception to the rule.

RPM

[Christopher Treichel]

cool topic...
As far as the godentag is concerned... the reason it is short but still effective against knights is not that it is short nor just that it can pierce mail but that it was employed by trained town militia in conjunction with obstacles and long spears.
(really the same concept is still true... don't send tanks out without infantry support... look at the first battle of Grozny in Chechnya where the Russians got their ... handed to them by a bunch of folks with molotovs and rifles)

Here is some background on the battle of the Golden Spurrs where the godentag had its fun.
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/sources/goldenspurs.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Golden_Spurs

Once again an example of French nobility on horseback trying to put a mounted glory ride attack into a less than desirable situation...

Terrain analysis: open field with large ditches (problem for massed assault on horseback... perfect for infantry with spears and the godentag... equals lots of dead French knights... think this has been seen a few times through history.

Maybe you could also look at the Swiss and German mercenaries of the 16th century... Landsknechte and Reisleufer... pikes and polearms are your best defense against someone in armor on a horse. Or even the bidenhaender employed by the doppelsoeldner in conjunction with pike men... with a bidenhaender you have both polearm and sword in one employed by a guy wearing a bit of mass produced munitions armour... seperate the cavalry into small groups, kill the horses and you don't have to worry about the fellow on top so much...

On the other hand If their riding knee to knee in a good formation with lances, and you are not trained well, on open ground with no obstacles... then crunchy (infantry)... you can kiss your a.. goodbye.

[David Lewis Smith]

We call infantry in support of armor Combined Arms, actually we would need air power for that as well, and for that you have to go to again to medieval China with kites, yes kites with bombs or incendiaries.

I get to be the ugly one again: only once have I see in a ‘historical’ movie someone loop the front legs off a horse with a claymore. Horses have inherent weaknesses. The frogs of their hooves, ankles and tendons on the back legs.

Perhaps a ‘disgraced’ knight stripped of his title, arms and armor in some foul scheme by a king that is both wicked and has a small chin (all wicked kings have small chins and mangy beards actually) returns after a hermitage in the mountains because he figures out or finds information that will restore his honor but things have gone from bad to worse. Now the wicked and weak king is held prisoner by both his own devices and a strong but evil knight. Justice must be served but our disgraced night has no Nobel weapons and now must fight evil leading peasants (yea it’s an old dodge but it works). End Statement of one engagement he smashes the knee of a knights mount, when the knight is face first in the dirt our fallen hero kicks his foe until he gets up to fight, yeah its corny and then uses a godentag to good effect. Nothing like a spike in the side of the skull to let fresh air in to a evil brain so that those bad vapors are replaced
I mentioned Molotovs earlier,

[Christopher Treichel]

I have a book of real French and German Knightly legends somewhere... Its not Brothers Grim time but the stuff you don't want to read before bedtime or a full meal... Its in German but it does contain a story about a wicked French knight who was borne as a spawn of a demon after a doctor (Jewish) tells the local prince to have an heir he has to bathe in the blood of an infant (yea, really its sadistic, anti semitic, blodthristy evil and weird story) the son is borne during a storm and promptly when old enough to beat heads in, goes arround killing lots of good Christian folks to include a bunch of friars. Then he has a reconning, goes to the holy land as a hermit, meets an archangel, defeats the infidel on a magic horse all the while pretending to be an insane deaf mute and sleeping in the kings stables... saves the day three times... gets the kings daughter and returns back to France as a hero... Did I mention these are some pretty weird stories... Let me take a look if I can find the book... It has a silver cover with some mounted knights on it... Might have put it in storage.

As far as combined assault goes... they did have that in medieval Europe... Take a look at Agincourt... prime example of catching the enemy in the "horns of dillema." Combine hundreds of archers (indirect fire) with infantry and cavalry so you get a three pronged assault... result is that your overconfident enemy gets spanked.

[David Lewis Smith]

“Why should I come back? They took my arms and armor. They took my good name and everything else that was important to me”.
“Because of this”, she proffered a tight role of seal skin.
Opening it he saw what was written there, the method of his down fall, carefully laid out in clear words. At the bottom were to stamps of wax, the signets were cracked with three years of being rolled together but the king’s ring heavy impression was easy enough to read, the other he did not know.
…..later
Over and over he ran though what would happen this morning in his mind. The ambush was well planned and had been weeks in preparation, first either side of the road where it passed through a deep cut had been prepared. Hip deep holes had been dug and the men crouched below the line of sight, for every ten men another had covered the holes carefully with a cloak and then dirt and leaves in case of scouts. The soil had been carefully removed over nights of digging in the dark, so close to the castle the riders would be at their ease he hoped, and not expecting attack. The cut ended with in a hundred yards of the clearing that surrounded the castle walls. Another thousand yards of open fields and low walls would keep the sounds from the ears of the centuries. With luck that is, always there was too much luck in the planning.
…..later
Arrows had flown and fortune was on their side this time, men tumbled from saddles, nearly all had hung their shields and most had removed their helms. The ambush had been a slaughter with most of the kings men at arms and Calvary going down in the first wave. It was a small patrol, 50 or so men with most dead and dying but for one. Before the first arrow had found its mark or even left the string he had yelled ‘Ambush!’, then slammed closed his full helm. At the rear of the column he spurred his forward leaving bloody marks on the beasts sides. From the forward position he had seen this and half falling half sliding down the slope and landed on the road only a few yards in front of the escaping knight. A woods men’s ax in his hand, no real weapon with grace or fit for combat lashed out.
Time slowed
Each beat of the horse’s hooves were spaced out by seconds, the ax seemed to slide through honey rather than air each inch painfully slow as the horse made its way closer in its own slow motion. The knee he thought and changed slightly the angle of the ark, he could see the blade bite deep felt the jar as the ax connected with bone and saw the ax exit the mounts leg from the rear. He saw the ax break from the impact the head flying away and the now useless haft left in his hands
The horse collapsed on its front leg screaming as only a horse can, the knight, he knew him now by his arms slammed in to the road and lay motionless for a moment. Aproching he drew from his belt the godentag its short half and spike would be a disadvantage but it was what he had.
“Up”, he kicked the fallen knight in the side stout farmers boots saving his feet from the armour, “Up you dog and fight”.
No fool he had stepped on the knights shied pinning it to the earth
“Up” the godentag lashed out spike revered and wood connected with the metal helm.
The knight drug himself to his feet shaking his head, his shield was on the ground under some peasants feet, this could not be happening to him. He tried to shake the confusion from his head, in the back ground he could hear a horse screaming and then it ended with a butchers sound.
“Now fight, fight me now with weapons and not some foul lie and trickery”,
The words were making sense, and the voice, he knew that voice, looking up he saw him, imposable but his eyes did not lie to him. He stood with spiked club, and though it had been years it was easy to recognize him. Drawing his sword he stepped forward only to have his blade knocked aside and the club smash in to his side, before he had even come to guard it had happened. He looked down the club was there seemingly glued to his armor and he found it hard to breath, this made no sense. The club pulled at his body as it was yanked away. His side felt wrong, wet and a dull ache started he brought his sword back to strike and the wet and dull ache turned to fire, looking down he could see the hole in the plate and where the plate ended he could see red spreading, on his gambeson and dripping on his leg armor. None of this seemed to make sense, his arm would not obey his thoughts and He was back, standing there with that awful club. He saw it moving then a clean circle that was drawing closer to his head, the spike stained red and wet leaving a single ruby droplit behind in the air came closer and ever closer until it passed out of his line of vision and then he thought no more

[Christopher Treichel]

wow David... you just write that now? I remember you posting some short stories on SFI a while back you are a pretty good writer.

[David Lewis Smith]

yes I did, and thank you very much
I have not been writting as much as I like to, and I really needed a break from work (which happens to involve writing reports and emails)