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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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P. Cha
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 Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 11:27 am Post subject: |
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How useful will this be against a skilled swordsman?!? Seriously, unless you had an overwhelming reach advantage, a simple step back and you can kiss your head goodbye. If you did have a reach advantage, I can just drop my sword point to block that shot as it's so slow with the squatting motion and just kick you in the face to push you over and then finish you off.
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | How useful will this be against a skilled swordsman?!? Seriously, unless you had an overwhelming reach advantage, a simple step back and you can kiss your head goodbye. If you did have a reach advantage, I can just drop my sword point to block that shot as it's so slow with the squatting motion and just kick you in the face to push you over and then finish you off. |
If you ever visit Hong Kong, you're welcome to give it a try. 
Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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Doug Lester
Location: Decatur, IL Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know about Lancelot's technique but attacks against legs were used. There are references to them in Norse tales and from archeology, skeletal remains with severed legs recovered from burial pits. An attack to the leg would be a target of opportunity, like when the opponents guard was too high or he was off balance. I personally think that stepping in to attack the leg with a low cut would be better than squatting but I'm not that versed in sword sparing.
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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To quote somebody who hosts a lot of tourney:
"Johnny H
Lance
Thank you for posting these videos. There have been a lot of leg cuts landing in the HEMA tournaments and doing so against skilled swordsmen, with the attacker getting away clean. Some question if these would just be annoyance hits or would it actually take a leg off. It is good to see that someone is willing to test it out.
Steel Sharpens Steel
http://www.swordfightingschool.com/Tournaments.html
"
Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Doug Lester wrote: | | I don't know about Lancelot's technique but attacks against legs were used. There are references to them in Norse tales and from archeology, skeletal remains with severed legs recovered from burial pits. An attack to the leg would be a target of opportunity, like when the opponents guard was too high or he was off balance. I personally think that stepping in to attack the leg with a low cut would be better than squatting but I'm not that versed in sword sparing. |
Leg cuts when shields are involved I understand as it will be one of the few initial openings. I also can understand hitting the leg if that is an opening due to poor swordmanship (and yes not everyone on the battlefield would have good swordmanship). The assertion was how is this good vs somebody who was good. And yes I would rather step in to do a leg cut vs squatting myself as well...but stepping in has it's own peril unless you are doing so from having the line (in which case you can generally just kill them outright vs dropping the sword to do a leg cut).
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Lancelot Chan wrote: | | P. Cha wrote: | | How useful will this be against a skilled swordsman?!? Seriously, unless you had an overwhelming reach advantage, a simple step back and you can kiss your head goodbye. If you did have a reach advantage, I can just drop my sword point to block that shot as it's so slow with the squatting motion and just kick you in the face to push you over and then finish you off. |
If you ever visit Hong Kong, you're welcome to give it a try. |
Not very likely to ever make it out there...but who said I was a good swordsman :P . I am mediocre at best (I don't react very well...I think too much in a fight)...just pointing out some flaws that could be exploited in your technique (I make a better armchair warrior...because I think too much hehe). But hey totally will look you up if I make it out there. If you ever make it state side to the SF bay area, we can try it out here as well .
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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As for many techniques, it's all in the setup leading to that final cut... A technique taken in isolation is always easy to counter. The question is how much does the proper setup of the technique affects the cutting ability, which is difficult to test conclusively.
For my part, having been hit in the leg quite a few times even while determined to slip the strike, I think training to hit and defend that target is valuable.
Regards,
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | As for many techniques, it's all in the setup leading to that final cut... A technique taken in isolation is always easy to counter. The question is how much does the proper setup of the technique affects the cutting ability, which is difficult to test conclusively.
For my part, having been hit in the leg quite a few times even while determined to slip the strike, I think training to hit and defend that target is valuable.
Regards, |
That is true...but I am not seeing a good way to lead up to this cut. You would need to get the opponent's sword high and off line and off balance or low and off line in a massive manner...and if you did that, why go for the leg? He's yours already.
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Colt Reeves
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| Posted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Well, the afore-mentioned armour and shields might make the leg the only real target, but a thought that occurs to me is that if you were in a battlefield situation and were careful not to hit your mates, then it might be a very good technique for dispatching an opponent who is occupied with your friends and their spears or something. Not sure what kind of armour and what not China had early on, but for a lot of early fighting cultures the upper body is armoured before the legs, making the leg a tempting target. Tag-teaming an opponent thusly might make a lot of sense.
"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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Ben Bouchard
Location: Bar Harbor, ME Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 11:52 am Post subject: |
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I recall reading a research paper on medieval battlefield injuries and it was noted by the researcher that most of the edged weapon wounds were actually to the legs. Can't find the document for the life of me though, so take it for what it's worth.
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Colt Reeves
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| Posted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben Bouchard wrote: | | I recall reading a research paper on medieval battlefield injuries and it was noted by the researcher that most of the edged weapon wounds were actually to the legs. Can't find the document for the life of me though, so take it for what it's worth. |
You might be thinking of the results from looking at the grave finds in Wisby or Visby.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Visby
http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/titles/wisby/wisby_p178.jpg
I didn't find any significant studies or papers in my five minute Google search, but that's hardly conclusive and I believe I've heard numerous mention of studies being done.
In any event though, it is my impression that much of the leg injury evidence stems from earlier periods, where mail haubergeons and shields were the primary forms of bodily protection. This makes sense. If the legs are the largest exposed portion of the body then it should come as no surprise they would be favored as targets, particularly if you are fighting with a large shield you can shove into your opponent to bind his weapon and leave him open at little risk to yourself.
Moving back to Lancelot's use of a two handed sword for this task, similar arguments could be made for the technique. Like I said, I'm not sure of what kind of armour China had throughout various time periods, but if they did in fact go with the usual armouring of the more vital parts first then it is likely that they also had more armour on the body than the legs and that going for unarmoured legs makes more sense than striking an armoured torso.
"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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This is a standard topic