[Craig Johnson]

New Item from Arms & Armor




The #237 Messer Trainer is our newest item at A&A. This excellent sword was developed with several Western Martial Arts instructors and scholars testing and critiquing to produce a piece that is quick in the hand and durable in life.

If you are new to the messer it is an exciting weapon to learn. It is often mentioned as a core of the European tradition of personal combat and one that anyone who carried a weapon in period would have had a familiarity with. Essentially a large (in some cases giant ) knife, the messer combat of the medieval period is versatile, fast and deadly.

Several folks had a chance to use these at the WMAW in Racine last September. The general comments where very positive to out right gushing by some messerheads The swords where used in several classes as well as appearing in some demonstration fights through out the weekend.

If you are looking for a steel training messer to upgrade your arsenal this maybe just what you need!

We also have the #129 English Buckler back in production and several other fun things in the works that you will see soon. We have a great deal going on so things will trickle out over the next couple of weeks or so.

We look forward to hearing from you soon

[Christian Henry Tobler]

If you do messer, you want these. Really.

I bought three at WMAW.

Yours,

Christian

[Bill Grandy]

I'm going to flat out say it: These are the best steel messer trainers on the production market. Period.

Some of you already know that I commissioned the two original prototypes of these. I didn't need them, as I already have messer trainers; Rather, I wanted something on the market for my students. More specifically, I wanted someone to be producing a steel trainer that was at a reasonable price point, comparible to the A&A Scholar Sword trainer. I called Craig up and threw around some ideas, then put my money where my mouth was, and had him make me two that would serve to be the test runs.

When Craig sent me those, they weren't bad. I had some suggestions for improvements, but overall I felt they were worth the price point as a mid-level training sword. I gave him some feedback, but overall was satisfied... but to my surprise, Craig took that feedback and went even further with it. When A&A debuted these trainers at WMAW, they blew me away. These were far better than what I expected, and at a price point of only $380 USD. They're light like a messer should be, they're fast, and they play incredibly well at free fencing (obviously with the right training and safety gear). It's been awhile since I've been so excited about a training sword, and these are worth the excitement.

If you've read my previous posts about my prototypes, or if you've been to an event where I brought them along, the current model is significantly better. In fact, the current production versions are *perfect*, in my opinion. There's not a single thing I would change.

[Aleksei Sosnovski]

Christian,

As you have handled these and probably some others as well, I have a question. This messer is straight, long, relatively heavy and has POB very close to the hilt. It is essentially an arming sword with a single edge and a (huge) nagel. Many reproductions such as this one http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ght=messer or this one http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...soldat.htm are shorter, lighter, have curved blades and POB 4-6" from the crossguard. What would be the difference in handling between these weapons? And which one in your opinion would better represent an "average" messer of the 15th century?

[Bill Grandy]

[Bill Grandy]

I don't know if this helps, but I have two images of me teaching with the messer in question that might give a better sense of the size. If you compare that to the images of the period fencing treatises (such as the Paulus Kal image I attached), I think you'll see that the length really is just fine.

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi all,

Bill pretty much answered as I would have. And thanks to Bill for spearheading this development!!

These trainers aren't as tip heavy as some historical messers. Then again, training longswords drop the balance hilt-ward too, and for the same reason: safety.

I love my Albion messer trainers, but they hit like bazookas. You really need to kit up a lot and/or only play with really senior (ie, controlled) guys. The A&As are more forgiving, but don't feel like featherweights in the hand either.

The feeling I get from them is not dissimilar to what I felt handling a messer in the Sankt Annen Museum in Lübeck - very light and fast.

The nagel is large on these, though there are some surviving messers with pretty large ones too. I think the larger nagel is a good thing as it allows clearance for hand protection, while still allowing a very fluid grip - a necessity in messer fighting.

As for what constitutes a 'typical' messer...they're really all over the map. Some are straight, some slightly curved, some significantly curved. Even a quick survey of fight treatises, let alone surviving pieces, will reveal considerable variation.

In closing though - believe me, these things fight well. I lent out the matched set I bought at WMAW to no less than a dozen high level fighters and all raved about them. And, you can see them in action if you hunt up the video of Jessica Finley and David Teague's demo fight at the WMAW Saturday feast.

Yours,

Christian

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Oh, and as a sidebar: Craig also made me a custom Paulus Kal messer, featuring the crazy "double clipped point" you see in the manuscript image above.

It's six kinds of awesome, so I'll have to post a photo soon!

Yours,

CHT

[Greg Mele]

I'm not even a messer guy and I kept trying to bogart Christian's. I mean really, what is the difference between a messer and a storta, besides one sounds like a pastry?

Honestly, I think the Albion's are pieces of art as training swords, but they are expensive and only meant for senior people to fence with. These trainers are simply alive in the hand, but you can feel the difference of a long hilt/short blade from a traditional sword. I am a big fan of the Fechterspeil and my sidesword trainer, but I think this is Craig's best training weapon. Period.

[Jon Wolfe]

I'm in that second photo with Mr. Grandy, and I also got to handle that prototype at the event along with a direct competitor, and let me say that the prototype was a far superior trainer than the other production model. So, if the production model is as much of an improvement over a prototype as has been said, than Arms and Armor's new training messer must truly be amazing! Not to mention the incredibly low price for which it is offered. When such an item is made available to practitioners, it truly inspires one to train in fields that were previously uninteresting.

I now know what I'm asking from Santa for Christmas.

However, if my posterior is going to spur sales, I demand royalties!

[Christopher VaughnStrever]

Some people like the way a pair of Nike shoes feel, others will argue that Reebok has a better shoe-- It just comes down to what each persons likeness of feel and their personal goals as far as choosing between A&A and Albion for this item....

Regardless of the afore mentioned-- My interest in the 15th century art of the Messer has been piqued. I need to add a third longsword trainer to my other two long swords and after that, (hopefully early 2012) I can make a purchase of two messers and get into that art

(Not to derail the thread, and perhaps I should make another thread) But if there was a short answer --Would the Dusak training of 16th century Meyer be in connection of the messer training? The dusak and messer do look extremely similar to me (of course except the handle.

[Bill Grandy]

[Michael B.]

YAY, English Buckler is back! I've been watching that carefully for a long time. (I feel like a loner with that cheer in this thread...but whatever)

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

[Aleksei Sosnovski]

[Craig Johnson]

Mornin everyone (my side of the ball at least)

Just wanted to add a bit as we have one left handed version on the muster page if there is anyone so orientated who is interested in these!