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David Bromkovsky
Location: Wheaton, IL Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 13
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 Posted: Thu 14 Oct, 2004 10:38 pm Post subject: Status of Two Handed swords in early 17th century |
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There's a quote in Milton's "Lycidas" in which a "two-handed engine at the door / Stands ready to smite once, and smite no more." It was written in 1638 and I'm wondering if he was intending a two-handed sword, but am unsure if two-handed swords would have been popular or would have been considered as outdated. What exactly was the opinion on two-handed swords and were there any remnants of them still being used that late?
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Björn Hellqvist
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Thu 14 Oct, 2004 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps he meant a musket?
The twohanded sword was outdated by this time, and was carried as a ceremonial weapon. Swords like the claymores could be in use in Scotland, though.
My sword site
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David Bromkovsky
Location: Wheaton, IL Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Thu 14 Oct, 2004 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry about the double post, didn't know how to get rid of the first one.
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David Bromkovsky
Location: Wheaton, IL Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Thu 14 Oct, 2004 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Björn Hellqvist wrote: | Perhaps he meant a musket?
The twohanded sword was outdated by this time, and was carried as a ceremonial weapon. Swords like the claymores could be in use in Scotland, though. |
I don't believe that he would have been impling a musket, atleast there is much to suggest it, but you mentioned that ceremonial swords would have been twohanded. Which ceremonies would they have used it in or what were the occasions that a twohanded sword would have been used in a ceremony, i.e. what was the ceremonial function of the swords?
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David McElrea
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| Posted: Fri 15 Oct, 2004 3:28 am Post subject: |
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David Bromkovsky wrote: | Quote: | | There's a quote in Milton's "Lycidas" in which a "two-handed engine at the door / Stands ready to smite once, and smite no more." It was written in 1638 and I'm wondering if he was intending a two-handed sword, but am unsure if two-handed swords would have been popular or would have been considered as outdated. What exactly was the opinion on two-handed swords and were there any remnants of them still being used that late? |
Hi David,
The question you raise is a complex one and has been debated amongst scholars for a long-time.
Some have seen the "two-handed engine" as a sword, others as a winnowing fan, others as a shepherd's staff or sheep hook, and so on.
It should be noted that the language is metaphorical-- as such it could indeed be a two-handed sword (even if they were out of fashion by Milton's time, Milton was certainly aware of them and knightly swords would not have been out of place in his writing), but it might not be...
Some of the debate has even focused on the words "two-handed". In Milton's time, apparently, two-handed could mean either "something which can be grasped with two hands" or "something which accomplishes two different things". As such, for instance, Milton's "two-handed engine" coukd be seen as an agent of both destruction and construction. It is possible, of course; that Milton was using both senses of the term "two-handed". More than once biblical references describe the word of God as a "sword"-- and God's words are ascribed the dual powers of creation and judgment...
I think that you may not be able to get a clear answer to your question-- but I don't think that the date of Milton's writing has much bearing on whether his engine could be a two-handed sword or not
Yours,
David
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Matthew Kelty
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| Posted: Thu 21 Oct, 2004 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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>what was the ceremonial function of the (two-handed) swords?
Parade pieces or set dressing, nothing looks quite as impressive as a long shiny piece of steel... 
Most parade pieces (Swords of state, etc.) tend to be exaggerated, more filigree, bigger blades, more ostentatious, in general, they were used to symbolize the power and glory, and need to be as impressive as the figurative wielder.
To wit, there is a WWII collector in Belmont, CA that has a Third Reich Ceremonial/Display Zwiehander. This Monster stands only about 48" tall, but has a blade at least 3.5 inches wide (if not 4), and probably weighs in at about 20 pounds.
It serves no purpose other than to look impressive, and remind you of the strength and power of the SS (Yup, it's got the SS (and Skull?) lightning-bolt motif enameled onto the Guard). It was probably just set dressing for a meeting or stage.
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David Bromkovsky
Location: Wheaton, IL Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Thu 21 Oct, 2004 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| David McElrea wrote: | David Bromkovsky wrote: | Quote: | | There's a quote in Milton's "Lycidas" in which a "two-handed engine at the door / Stands ready to smite once, and smite no more." It was written in 1638 and I'm wondering if he was intending a two-handed sword, but am unsure if two-handed swords would have been popular or would have been considered as outdated. What exactly was the opinion on two-handed swords and were there any remnants of them still being used that late? |
Hi David,
The question you raise is a complex one and has been debated amongst scholars for a long-time.
Some have seen the "two-handed engine" as a sword, others as a winnowing fan, others as a shepherd's staff or sheep hook, and so on.
It should be noted that the language is metaphorical-- as such it could indeed be a two-handed sword (even if they were out of fashion by Milton's time, Milton was certainly aware of them and knightly swords would not have been out of place in his writing), but it might not be...
Some of the debate has even focused on the words "two-handed". In Milton's time, apparently, two-handed could mean either "something which can be grasped with two hands" or "something which accomplishes two different things". As such, for instance, Milton's "two-handed engine" coukd be seen as an agent of both destruction and construction. It is possible, of course; that Milton was using both senses of the term "two-handed". More than once biblical references describe the word of God as a "sword"-- and God's words are ascribed the dual powers of creation and judgment...
I think that you may not be able to get a clear answer to your question-- but I don't think that the date of Milton's writing has much bearing on whether his engine could be a two-handed sword or not
Yours,
David |
Your quite right, I came across about 25 differing interpretations, all with some validity, and wondered whether a double handed sword really had any validity. I don't think there is enough to justify a clear answer, but it would make sense that Milton might be impling the sword due to the significance of the sword representing the word of Christ or the gosple. It is quite interesting though the extent people have taken these two words and where they end up! Thanks for the help.
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