[Matthew Bunker]

[Phil U]

[Ken Speed]

Matthew Bunker wrote, "The only thing that burials really tell us is what the living felt like burying with the dead."


Well, no, I disagree. I think grave finds have been a rich source of knowledge about the Vikings. I suspect that ship burials tend to skew things because they're the burials of wealthy and important people. The graves of the guys rowing the boat are generally harder to find and, I suspect, less distinctive. There have been some mass graves found recently but it seems the information from those finds hasn't been disseminated yet.

[David Huggins]

I'd tend to agree with Matt on this one, burial is about ritual, about what those living wish to convey about the buried, about their status in that society and tend to adhere to the prevailing conventions of society at that time.

Some female graves display weapons but does this truly reflect their role in society, or is it a mark of status as a free person, who where allowed by law to bear weapons.

The contemporary Western European style of burial for a male tends to be a suit of jacket, trousers, tie and shirt, but how many of us actually wear a suit every day.

Best
Dave

[Matthew Bunker]

[Audun Refsahl]

Isn't this a question of definitions? If you define a lower class viking as one who couldn't afford a sword, then a lower class viking wouldn't be carrying one, right?

the law quoted earlier (I think that is "Gulatingsloven"? "the Gula thing law" ) states that a man of a certain wealth has to own a certain kit, matt quoted the lowest class kit, axe, spear and shield. the fine for lacking one was approximately the price for buying one, so I assume everyone had this sorted. people of higher wealth were required to own swords, bows with an amount of arrows and well, a growing kit for a growing wealth...
another law, "leidangsloven", sais that every farm must send one warrior if called upon, and he has to have this kit. it states that poorer families can go together and send one, maybe 3 or 4 families would buy the gear together and the best fighter from one of these farms represented them.
scandinavia was a warrior society, warriors was highly regarded and weapons was a priority and a status symbol.

[David Huggins]

Phil,

My general advice would be to keep it simple at first and go for the primary weapon of thrusting spear and for defense, a shield. You can always invest in a secondary weapon as your continued interest expands and as budget allows.

But to me there is little satisfaction in owning these weapons if your personal kit is not 'correct' and I would advise expending as much consideration and thought on these as to your choice of weapons, sometimes its the finer points that create an overall quality impression.

best
Dave

[Matthew Bunker]

[Paul Hansen]

[Ken Speed]

Matthew asked, "Which ones? The ones in Oxford and in Dorset which seem to be fallout from the St Brice's Day Massacre? There are no weapons or other personal effects in those, but then you wouldn't expect there to be. If they are victims of the massacre then they were taken unarmed and unawares, massacred and thrown into pits."

Yes, and you're absolutely right; these graves don't tell us much about the belongings and equipment of the people in them.

I recently read somewhere that it was apparently a cultural universal for Vikings to file their teeth horizontally. With my tongue firmly in cheek I'd like to suggest that this explains why they were so fierce! They were maddened by the pain! I truly hope I don't read about any reenactors getting their teeth filed!

You said something about trying to learn about the Vikings was like peering at them through a pinhole and I think that's why opinions on them are so diverse. Someone likens them to organized crime in one place and someone else marvels at their ability to use Icelandic spar to navigate somewhere else.One of the problems is that people see a generic Viking and I suspect that the men who with Harold Hardrada at Stamford Bridge were a far cry from the men who raided Lindisfarne in equipment and organization and probably in training.

I suppose we should get back to topic at hand and i still think that the equipment a reenactor would need to portray a lower class Viking would be fairly minimal at least to get started.

[Bjorn Hagstrom]

[Phil U]

Appreciate the discussion and guidance .... someone new like me could possibly piece all of this together by reading past threads and such, but rapid, on-target distillation is helpful and more importantly, encouraging. Thanks!

David and Matthew, good points about over-emphasis on weaponry, I am guilty as charged, , having spent hours scanning weapon pics, reviews, and discussion , and nil on period clothing. I wouldn't want to be the guy in sneakers proudly brandishing a $1000 sword. This might be a stretch, but in the gardening world, it reminds me of people whose idea of gardening is going to the store and buying plants, versus grubbing in soil like a real gardener.

I'm going to see what I can learn about the more domestic aspects of viking kits, and I'll check in with my dentist about teeth filing. Wonder if my insurance covers that .....

[Ken Speed]

Bjorn said, "I attended a lecture with a professor of osteoarchaeology (hope I got that right, she was anyhow specialized in the studies of old bones) She showed us picture and data on the filed teeth. And there are only a few finds (I think less than a dozen). The interesting thing, and the reason why the term "universal" has stuck, is that the finds have been distributed all over the baltic, some on Gotland, some in Denmark, yet some on the east side of the baltic, all filed with the same horizontal grooves. Her best theory was that it could have been kind of a gang-tattoo for a band of vikings, and that they either died and where buried during their raids, or that they where originallt from different areas and disbanded, settled and died in different areas."

Wow, osteoarcheology! I have to wonder if a thousand years from now there will be archeologists who specialize in tires or spark plugs or CDs!

Seriously, thanks for the information. The implications are really interesting. Could these have been Jomsvikings? It's theory, I know, but it points to the idea that these ship's crews were from all over the Viking world. Well, maybe some crews in any case.

It could have just been a macho thing, though. You know, "I'm so tough and crazy that not only am I a Viking but I also have had my teeth filed."

My vote is for crazy, hands down! Having someone getting their teeth filed makes me ill just thinking about it!

[Phil U]

[Ken Speed]

OK! I think it is at least partially my fault that the discussion here has gone a bit astray.

I suspect that Matthew and I were approaching the same issue from different sides. Grave goods are, by definition, selected. Its like what is said about antique furniture, the good stuff survives because it IS good and because it looks good while the rest gets used up or destroyed.

The other question too is, "How good does a weapon have to be?" We get sort of carried away here I think with all these beautiful weapons and armor. One of William Short's video shows a guy killing an armed man with a rock! A sword doesn't need to be a pattern welded and sculpted piece of art to kill somebody, it doesn't even need to be all that sharp!

Frankly, I can think of lots of scenarios in which someone would be a member of a Viking crew with very minimal and poor quality equipment. Ummm....., "Well, after the last raid I got blind drunk and when I woke up the next morning all I had was the clothes on my back. My shipmates loaned me their spare stuff until I can get enough loot to reequip myself with good weaponry." These were Vikings, Hell's Angels with oars, not Sunday school students!

[Phil U]

[Jeremy V. Krause]

[David Huggins]

[Elling Polden]

Jeremy; While not all swords where pattern welded, they where all laminated. That is, folded and hammered to even out impurities. But most where made from a single piece of laminated iron, rather than severald welded together, as in the pattern weld.
This is a neccesity if you are working with low carbon/impure iron, as the marsh ore iron of the dark ages, or japanese river ore. As iron smelting technology improves towards the middle ages, the need to laminate sword blades is no longer present. Thus, most medevial swords are so called monosteel sword, made from a single piece of unfolded steel.


When it comes to arms and equipment:
As allready identified, the standards equipment set down by the laws for the Leidang was spear, shield, and a axe or sword. This law is thought to date to the 950s, when the Leidang system was formalized by king Hakon the Good to defend Norway from Harald Bluetooth and his henchies.
This early law has no tiers; any equipment above the minimum was voluntary. Income based tiers where not introduced untill the 1270s. However, even then, the basic equipment did not include a helmet, and the mail armour was not required before the top tier.
Archeological studies show that weapon finds in graves gravitate towards full "sets" towards the end of the viking age, perhaps as a result of the laws.

As for the relative rarity of swords, there are currently more viking age swords than axes in Norwegian musemus. This could of course be due to more swords beeing handed in or reported by the public, but over all, the numbers are significant.
These range from the extremely ornate to the positively plain. The bar hilted Pettersen type M, for instance, is quite common.

[William P]

its interesting to read about what a lower end dane would aquire for a kit,

its in vast contrast to myself as a varangian guardsman. even if they didnt enter the gaurd as particularly rish men, the pay the guard was given would be enough to buy a sword or some armour. and, most importantly, a 2 handed axe, the guards signiture weapon fairly quickly.

this is of course assuming h couldnt have the purchase of armour and weapons paid directly thorough the treasury as part of the emporers entourage and guard

i have no idea, either way, im still being aquainted
i just know that my groupstrives to depict someone of huskarl

and will agree most common men woldnt have a helmet, some reenactment groups may or may not require one to be able to take part in combat. if your intending on fighting that is.