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Colt Reeves
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 Posted: Fri 23 Sep, 2011 3:29 am Post subject: A Knight's Non-Skid Shoe? |
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Here I am, asking another question of the board...
We've all heard about how slippery medieval turn-shoes were, how useful they are in combat as opposed to the thick clunky modern footwear, etc.
However, I came across something interesting in an Osprey "Warrior" book entitled: English Medieval Knight 1400-1500.
In it, on page 9 there is the following quote:
| Quote: | | On his feet he wore shoes designed to prevent skidding, described in detail: 'Also a payre of shone [shoes] of thikke Cord-wene and they muste be frette [fretted] with smal uhipcorde thre knottis up on a corde and thre cordis muste be faste swoid [sewn] on to the hele of the shoo and fyne cordis in the mvdill of tin- soole of the same shoo and that ther be betwene the frettis of the hele and the frettis of the mydill of the shoo the space of three fvngris.' |
This was interesting to me because I hadn't heard of it before, but it sounded like a good idea and something our ancestors would have thought of.
Thus I began my quest. First I turned to the almighty Google, which proved to be less than almighty on this topic. Undaunted I tried the myArmoury.com search function, which also came up with nothing. I finally decided I must call for aid.
Waxing poetic drama aside, I am curious to see if anyone knows anything about this. As usual, a picture is worth a thousand words, so I'd like some of those if reasonably possible.
Oh, and if anyone can spell out exactly what is said in the above quote, I'd appreciate that. I'm not sure I understand it.
"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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Matthew Bunker
Location: Somerset UK Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 483
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| Posted: Fri 23 Sep, 2011 5:18 am Post subject: |
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It's from the famous 'How a man shall be armed', a mid 15th century account of how and in what order a man should be armed for a foot tournament.
You can read a full translation here:-
http://www.chronique.com/Library/Armour/armyd1.htm
Basically what it's saying is that he should wear stout shoes which have knotted cords sewn onto the heel and fine cords sewn onto the sole. The gap between the cords on the heel and those of the sole should be three fingers breadths wide (to leave a gap under the instep). It doesn't specify the direction that the threads should run in but common sense dictates that they should run across the heel and sole, rather than from front to back.
"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Sander Marechal
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| Posted: Sat 24 Sep, 2011 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew Bunker wrote: | | It doesn't specify the direction that the threads should run in but common sense dictates that they should run across the heel and sole, rather than from front to back. |
My first guess would have been some sort of spiral sewn on the underside with the stitches running through the sole.
Anyway, I'd love to see a reproduction of this if anyone has made it.
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Ralph Grinly
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| Posted: Sat 24 Sep, 2011 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone know if any of the many medieval shoes found have any indication of this type of sole ?
I'm thinking that the rope-soled " Boating Shoes" available today might be using the similar style of thing for non-skid work on wet decks ??
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N Cioran
Location: Toronto Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Sun 25 Sep, 2011 1:19 am Post subject: |
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A fret is a specific form in heraldry, a sort of diagonal cross hatch. You can see my interpretation here:
http://www.hippeis.com/forum/index.php?topic=606.0
The fret provides grip while still allowing a slide that a modern rubber sole does not.
Enjoy,
Cole
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Gabriele A. Pini
Location: Olgiate Comasco, Como Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Sun 25 Sep, 2011 6:23 am Post subject: |
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to N Cioran: why you didn't cover the point with the cord? Too much wear?
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N Cioran
Location: Toronto Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Sun 25 Sep, 2011 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Gabriele,
I didn't cover the toe because the source material said the heel and the middle of the sole. Having worn them until the cord was literally worn off, I suspect this is to allow a slight shift in weight onto the toes that will allow you to literally skate forward or back. I can mv a pace further with the slide than in a rubber soled shoe...
Cole
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Jakub Biblis
Location: London Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 6
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Colt Reeves
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| Posted: Mon 26 Sep, 2011 2:35 am Post subject: |
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This is interesting stuff. Thanks for the replies, if I ever make myself a pair of turnshoes, I'll think I'll try the "frette" version.
"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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Matthew Bunker
Location: Somerset UK Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 483
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| Posted: Mon 26 Sep, 2011 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| N Cioran wrote: | | A fret is a specific form in heraldry, a sort of diagonal cross hatch. |
Yes, but in Middle English it also means a lace or tie (which is the meaning ascribed to in relation to this quote in the ever useful 'Middle English Dictionary').
Apparently the word 'fyne' may be a mistranscription of 'fyve', meaning five cords on the sole and three on the heel with a space of three finger breadths between the two sets, which makes sense.
"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Sander Marechal
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| Posted: Mon 26 Sep, 2011 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| N Cioran wrote: | | A fret is a specific form in heraldry, a sort of diagonal cross hatch. You can see my interpretation here: |
Very nice. How is the cord attached to the sole? With stitches running through the sole (i.e. you can see the stitches on the inside)?
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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A. Elema
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| Posted: Wed 28 Sep, 2011 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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It's interesting that the cords go on the heel and the middle of the shoe. This would still allow the wearer to pivot smoothly on the balls of his feet, while giving him some traction when he's just walking.
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Thomas R.
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| Posted: Wed 28 Sep, 2011 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Sander Marechal wrote: | | N Cioran wrote: | | A fret is a specific form in heraldry, a sort of diagonal cross hatch. You can see my interpretation here: |
Very nice. How is the cord attached to the sole? With stitches running through the sole (i.e. you can see the stitches on the inside)? |
I thought about this, too. It would make sense, to not stitch completely through the sole, to prevent getting wet feet. Also, you shouldn't loop the thread around the cord, but stitch through it. If you are just whipstitching it to the sole, the thread would be chafed through quite fast.
Thomas
http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
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Sander Marechal
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| Posted: Wed 28 Sep, 2011 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Thomas R. wrote: | | I thought about this, too. It would make sense, to not stitch completely through the sole, to prevent getting wet feet. Also, you shouldn't loop the thread around the cord, but stitch through it. If you are just whipstitching it to the sole, the thread would be chafed through quite fast. |
Thanks. Any ide how I could go about that? What's that type of stitch called? I have a nice pair of turnshoes from Ana Period Shoes. I glued heel patches to them for extra traction but they came off after a couple of months. So, this cord is really appealing to me.
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Thomas R.
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N Cioran
Location: Toronto Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Wed 28 Sep, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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I sewed the cord through a clout sole, which was then sewn on using tunnel stitches as per shoes and pattens. Note that this is ver hard to do on old hardened soles, much better to do with new supple ones...
Have fun!
Cole
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Kel Rekuta
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2011 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| N Cioran wrote: | I sewed the cord through a clout sole, which was then sewn on using tunnel stitches as per shoes and pattens. Note that this is ver hard to do on old hardened soles, much better to do with new supple ones...
Have fun!
Cole |
Wet the sole, then do your aw and stitch work. That's how old time "apprentice trained" cobblers do it. When the leather dries it grips the waxed thread remarkably.
Cole, you make an appropriately hairy Greek re-enactor. 
Good job on the project, I'm sure it was an amazing experience!
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N Cioran
Location: Toronto Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Tue 04 Oct, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Kel,
Thanks for the tip, I hadn't even thought to try... Next time 
Thanks for the comments on Marathon Kel. it was a hell of a challenge, and unqualifiedly the greatest re-enacting experience of my life. So we;ll have to do it again, and even better (and hairier
We should get together for a pint and I can bore you with the whole album of photos!
Have fun!
Cole
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This is a standard topic
