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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr, 2011 12:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No need to apologize at all! So far, your progress has been ten times faster than most people who take on such complex projects, and your results have been stunning! I hope you recovery swiftly, Boris. I check this thread every time I see that it has a new post. Happy

-Gregory

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Tibor Szebenyi




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PostPosted: Sun 04 Sep, 2011 2:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://nomadok.gportal.hu/picview.php?prt=953...mp;index=1

Here is my Yushman project: the XVI. century Mamluk equipment is near complete. The next step is to put it into action on horseback.
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William P




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PostPosted: Sun 04 Sep, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aleksei Sosnovski wrote:
Boris,

My tests with lamellar and war bow show that plates are very difficult to penetrate. Actually more difficult than breast plate of same thickness, because lammellar is flexible. However thongs that connect individual plates together get torn, opening pretty large gaps for other arrows to come through. Blows with one-handed swords however do not tear the thongs. Did you have similar results in your tests?

I use brass nails with domed heads as rivets when I need something other than steel. They should be annealed to become softer, but otherwise are relatively cheap and easy to use and and look really good. Have you ever tried them? If no than you should try them some time.


this problem with torn lacing would be negated then by the fact this yushman is linked together by maile,
now one question is that did the use of plated maile extend to romania and Hungary during the 15th C

(ill admit openly inm thinking about the fact that vlad tepes armour in the show 'deadliest warrior' is represented as being maille with metal plates though it was butterd mail and simple large squares linked to the maile when the opposing sides weapons are tested to see if they would be capable of theoretically hurting vlad through when wearing that armour type.
i figured id ask those who have some experience with plated maile before judging it either way (though my gut instinct is that he, as a european noble would have worn something closer to his west European contemporaries. )

this also might partly explain the move by the japanese to use kusari to connect pieces on kote and their cuisses in later period armours.
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Romulus Stoica




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PostPosted: Sun 04 Sep, 2011 10:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All original (real medieval armors) maille and maille and plates armor in romanian museums are riveted. Yes, there are maille and platea armors similar to turkis armor (mainly yushman types) in romanian museums. I need to take some pictures someday, because armor in romanian museums are little known.
I have some pictures with maille in romanian museums but none of the maille and plates armors.
Saddly romanian museums are "littered" with poorly made "replicas" with butted maille, made by so called "specialists"... Mad
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William P




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 6:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Romulus Stoica wrote:
All original (real medieval armors) maille and maille and plates armor in romanian museums are riveted. Yes, there are maille and platea armors similar to turkis armor (mainly yushman types) in romanian museums. I need to take some pictures someday, because armor in romanian museums are little known.
I have some pictures with maille in romanian museums but none of the maille and plates armors.
Saddly romanian museums are "littered" with poorly made "replicas" with butted maille, made by so called "specialists"... Mad

and the one shown on this tv piece is equally pitiful its a piece of butted chaindressed onto a pig,carcass, which has 6 very large swquare plates attatched only by their corners to the rest of the maille
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGI7KcwI89o&feature=related its about the point of 5 minutes into the video, or if you just press 6 once you load up the page and itll jump to about that time
this yushman makes me want even more to try ottoman style armour which would raise a couple of eyebrows from my family (im greek), the chestplate also reminds me of the lorica segmentata and i thing with any sortof padding on top of this, it would be insanly hard to damage because padding bunches around a bodkin point, and quickly slows it down, so if it was on top and below maille, it would be resistant to most arrows.
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Romulus Stoica




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 10:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That "armor" is a pitiful excuse of a kolontar Laughing Out Loud . Even my first attempt to make that type of armor was way better than that. Vlad the Impaler would not have used such thing ... Kolontar was a russian type of armor and there is no surviving example of a kolontar in Wallachia (or Ţara Romānească, now southern part of Romania).
And about the theory that Vlad used hangoones/handcannons... We know that this weapon was known by his time but saw little use in Wallachia. Allmost all black powder weapons in that area were made in Transylvania because there there were all the necessary resources do make them. John Hunyadi use them extensively as equipment for his war wagons, together with heavy crossbows and light artilery after the hussite fashion. John Hunyadi hired thousands of hussite refugies in his army.
By contrast, the wallachians despised firearms as personal infantrymen weapons because their low rate of fire and used mainly composite bows similar to turkish bows, but they used light artilery too.
The hangoone is better suited to be used in fixed positions, in war wagons fortified camps and in sieges. Wallachians never used war wagons camps in XV century as far as we know.
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Ahmad Tabari





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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 11:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Incredible work Boris. That mail and plate suit looks fantastic.
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William P




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 1:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Romulus Stoica wrote:
That "armor" is a pitiful excuse of a kolontar Laughing Out Loud . Even my first attempt to make that type of armor was way better than that. Vlad the Impaler would not have used such thing ... Kolontar was a russian type of armor and there is no surviving example of a kolontar in Wallachia (or Ţara Romānească, now southern part of Romania).
And about the theory that Vlad used hangoones/handcannons... We know that this weapon was known by his time but saw little use in Wallachia. Allmost all black powder weapons in that area were made in Transylvania because there there were all the necessary resources do make them. John Hunyadi use them extensively as equipment for his war wagons, together with heavy crossbows and light artilery after the hussite fashion. John Hunyadi hired thousands of hussite refugies in his army.
By contrast, the wallachians despised firearms as personal infantrymen weapons because their low rate of fire and used mainly composite bows similar to turkish bows, but they used light artilery too.
The hangoone is better suited to be used in fixed positions, in war wagons fortified camps and in sieges. Wallachians never used war wagons camps in XV century as far as we know.


they also assert vlad adopted the turkish kilij but my initial thinking is hes european, eastern european but still european, shouldnt he have a varient of the arming sword or longsword.
and here i thought dracula resided in transylvania :P silly me.

so your saying vlad would not have used plated maile? or he wouldnt have used THAT sort of plated maile? would he have used more the ottoman type that boris is constructing or maybe instead did he use contemporary western armour, brigadine, plate, COP, etc?

i would only try something even remotely like that because id want to have plated mail and was too cash or time limited to do it properly but, unlike the yushman, instead of removing the squares of maile and placing the plate within the fabric, id be inclined to (and i initially though plated mail was constructed this way besides it would be abit stronger) place the plate on TOP of the maile, and then use maile rings to attatch it to the rest of the weave, but not just at the corners, I at the least would make more holes and use string, or leather thonging,or something else, and, using more than just 4 corner holes.

the thing though which amuses me though about this show is that even in times when the armour is so pitifully scrapped together and the weapon to be used on it STILL fails utterly to do a decent amount of damage because sometimes the people on the other side are equally as bad.
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Romulus Stoica




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 2:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The turkish influence in all Romanian Pricipates was wery strong. The use of sabre (not only turkish but also polish and hungarian versions) was widely spread along side western type weapons. We don't know for sure what kind oe sword or sabre Vlad would have used, but usually, the high nobility (boyars) would have use the best weapons available. Vlad was held hostage at the sultan's palace when he was young, so he could have use a turkish style sabre. But Also his father was a western style knight, member of the Order of the Dragon, so he could have used a bastard sword also Happy ...
As for armor, I think he would have used western type, maybe some sort of transitional plate. The most widespread armor was maille, with plate elements like simple pauldrons, maybe a gorget and a breastplate. Usually the wallachians were lightly armored, making extensive use of light cavalry and archers. But heavy armor was also bought from Transylvania and Italy. Turkish style maille and plates was usually captured equipment and it was used because Wallachia had little iron resources so any kind of armor was scrapped and reused as much as possible.
In maille and plates armor is useless to place plates OVER maille because it would add a lot of weight without adding much protection. The armor sould be as light and flexible as possible but still remain as protective as you could make it. No maille and plate armor that I know of, is made with plates kept in place with rings over the maille
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William P




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 6:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Romulus Stoica wrote:
The turkish influence in all Romanian Pricipates was wery strong. The use of sabre (not only turkish but also polish and hungarian versions) was widely spread along side western type weapons. We don't know for sure what kind oe sword or sabre Vlad would have used, but usually, the high nobility (boyars) would have use the best weapons available. Vlad was held hostage at the sultan's palace when he was young, so he could have use a turkish style sabre. But Also his father was a western style knight, member of the Order of the Dragon, so he could have used a bastard sword also Happy ...
As for armor, I think he would have used western type, maybe some sort of transitional plate. The most widespread armor was maille, with plate elements like simple pauldrons, maybe a gorget and a breastplate. Usually the wallachians were lightly armored, making extensive use of light cavalry and archers. But heavy armor was also bought from Transylvania and Italy. Turkish style maille and plates was usually captured equipment and it was used because Wallachia had little iron resources so any kind of armor was scrapped and reused as much as possible.
In maille and plates armor is useless to place plates OVER maille because it would add a lot of weight without adding much protection. The armor sould be as light and flexible as possible but still remain as protective as you could make it. No maille and plate armor that I know of, is made with plates kept in place with rings over the maille


i guess its worth looking at from this angle with regard to swords, vlad was RICH, he could afford TWO swords if he wished after all he had to provide arms and armour for his closest retinue (at least this was the case for most european nobles i THINK) i dont think commissioning one extra sword would be too much to ask for the baron of wallacia
and again vlad was the baron of wallacia. i imagine that any person brazen or stupid enough to say "you will only have one sword" would possibly find himself attending vlads next dinner party, as a impaled ornament something tells me vlad was not someone you screwed with.
while the person shooting that handgonne in the video wasnt a historian of any kind but an actor, if othing else he channeled that aura of malice that vlad is so famous for, very very well,
in transitional plate though, you say that the common armour was mail i assume a typical knightly hauberk of the previous centuries
so to clarify, this is a breastplate over a regular hauberk? though unless im mistaken, later full plate harnesses didnt have a hauberk or mail shirt under the harness but instead maile sewn onto the aketon under the armour
thats the sort of combination i would expect to see on the byzantine cataphracts, if they wernt besieged in 1204 and were better able to resist the ottomans in the 15th century.
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 6:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris, here are the pictures from the Met you asked for, hope I'm not to late on these. http://www.flickr.com/photos/thoog/sets/72157...3/?page=17 (sometimes you have to right click several times to get the higher resolution pics)
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think I jumped the gun on those pics, probably not the ones you are looking for. I'm a bit confused over what is arm armour and leg armour for this type of armour. But anyway here is some more pictures of maille and plate. http://www.kitabhona.org.ua/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=1536 Pages 1, 8 and 10 have some arms and greaves.
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Let me apologize for wasting everyone's time here, my computer's been freezing up before the pictures can download and I've been making a few blunders, and also I missed Boris's explanation of the arm and leg armour on a previous page.
So this is my last attempt at trying to contribute to this thread. Hopefully this is a picture of the greave on the side of the leg just as Boris described.http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?s=&...p;p=114280
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Romulus Stoica




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 10:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
i guess its worth looking at from this angle with regard to swords, vlad was RICH, he could afford TWO swords if he wished after all he had to provide arms and armour for his closest retinue (at least this was the case for most european nobles i THINK) i dont think commissioning one extra sword would be too much to ask for the baron of wallacia
and again vlad was the baron of wallacia. i imagine that any person brazen or stupid enough to say "you will only have one sword" would possibly find himself attending vlads next dinner party, as a impaled ornament something tells me vlad was not someone you screwed with.
while the person shooting that handgonne in the video wasnt a historian of any kind but an actor, if othing else he channeled that aura of malice that vlad is so famous for, very very well,
in transitional plate though, you say that the common armour was mail i assume a typical knightly hauberk of the previous centuries
so to clarify, this is a breastplate over a regular hauberk? though unless im mistaken, later full plate harnesses didnt have a hauberk or mail shirt under the harness but instead maile sewn onto the aketon under the armour
thats the sort of combination i would expect to see on the byzantine cataphracts, if they wernt besieged in 1204 and were better able to resist the ottomans in the 15th century.


Well... The "standard" walachian tactics was based on hiding all the available crops in deep pits coated with burned clay and covered with earth and grass and all the livestock in the forests, poisoning the watter supplies, ambushes against foraging parties of the enemy army and even night attacks with small bands of horse archers. Vlad was famous for the big night attack on the turkish army when he burned it's camp and nearly killed the sultan (he was sleeping in another tent, while in his tent slept one of his generals who was killed by a "comando" party). So the aura of malice is well deserved.
It is possible that Vlad could have used both type of weapons, the lighter sabre has it's advantages on horseback against light armored turkish troops.
Most western type maille armors in romanian museums are maille shirts, mid calf length or a little longer, about 4-5 inches above the knee, with short or 3/4 sleeves. There are examples of voiders also. I have a picture of a maille sleeve that covers the armit too and it looks that it was made to be sewn onto some type of gambeson/aketon and used together with a front and back breastplate but most of the breastplates in the museums are small front plates only and quite thin so I guess they were used with a full maille shirt.
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Mon 12 Sep, 2011 12:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi, all forum-mates!

I want to apologize for my silence, but I have a daughter born just a month ago and she takes me almost all of my time and attention.
Now, I consider to speed up with this project in order to finish it around the begging of November for our annual recreation of the Battle of Varna, 1444

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Mon 12 Sep, 2011 12:55 pm    Post subject: The Bazubands - Continue         Reply with quote

And here is some stuff finished so far:



Top raw - padding for the bazubands;
Middle raw - padding for the gloves;
Bottom raw - gloves and the maile-gauntlets, one of them is test-sewn on an old glove.

After that the padding was sewn on the gloves:



followed by the gauntlets themselves:


"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Mon 12 Sep, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject: The Greaves - Continue         Reply with quote

All plates for the greaves - drilled, bent, dished, flared out, rolled, initially planished:



Cavalry type on the left; infantry - on the right.
The following is a raw of some more detailed pictures, taken from different angles with an intention to show the complex form of the plates:

* Infantry type:










** Cavalry type:










As a whole, I'm not quite satisfied of the results - I think the things could get better during my work. I know, there are some flaws that can be repaired, but this still does not make me feel better.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
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William P




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PostPosted: Mon 12 Sep, 2011 8:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

boris considering the extrodinary level of craftsmanship you have put into the rest of your yushman particularly the arm and body protection plus the shield.. i think people would barely notice a lack of greaves, so fixiated they would be on the plated maille,
at the same time, i can imagine you wouldnt be satisfied leaving it unfinished after working so hard on the rest,
by the way what will your helmet look like? will it be a zichagge style turkish helm? considering how well you have done so far i have no doubt you will do a fine job on the rest of it

by the way is it true that some ottoman infantry had armoured boots made in the same way as your rebraces i.e shaped plates connected by bands of maille?
its shown in 'warrior, visual history of the fighting man'
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Romulus Stoica




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep, 2011 12:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
... I have a daughter born just a month ago and she takes me almost all of my time and attention.


Congratulations! I know perfectly what you feel, I have a daughter too, 1 year and 9 months old. Her favourite book is a small illustrated encyclopedia of weapons and armor Happy ...
I would like to hear more about your bazubands. I want to make some too.
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep, 2011 6:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris Petrov Bedrosov wrote:
Hi, all forum-mates!

I want to apologize for my silence, but I have a daughter born just a month ago and she takes me almost all of my time and attention.
Now, I consider to speed up with this project in order to finish it around the begging of November for our annual recreation of the Battle of Varna, 1444


Congratulations! Happy Happy Happy

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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