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David Gaál
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 Posted: Fri 15 Jul, 2011 3:36 am Post subject: |
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I think it is unfair to compare a spartan to a samurai because a spartan has minimal armour compared to a samurai. I don't know much about samurai but as I can read on wikipedia they appeared in history from 794. In that age I suppose they had not so good quality armour as after the european influence, so it would be better to compare the early samurai to the spartan.
My personal opinion is that fighting with a shield and a one handed sword (even if it's the smallest) against a katana is easier in the point of view of defense and attacking as well, because you can hide from the blows under the shield and do hidden attacks from close distance which is not easy to defend with a katana. And in battle? Hmm... I think nothing is better than a well organised army where the warriors trust each other and have learned how to fight side by side. Whatever I think shields provide big advantage.
David
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Max Chouinard
Location: Quebec, Qc Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 108
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| Posted: Fri 15 Jul, 2011 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | . this may have been due to that reletive iron scarcity everyone seems to talk about. which meant that while they could make arrowheads out of it they couldnt spend vast quantities making iron cased trebuchet ammo. |
Everyone who hasn't looked at the data that is. According to the records, Foreign Iron wasn't in huge demand in Japan, and they did exported a lot of armors, guns and swords to Asian countries.
| Quote: | | that said, these weapons if used were of a great minority. to contrast, in europe. |
Where do you get that from?
| Quote: | | the two most commonly associated hand weapons of that era are the sword. and the morning star for knights, and the axe for the vikings. and im talking about popular culture perception |
When did pop culture became a serious reference for anything?
| Quote: | | in contrast, japan in popular culture is known primarily for the sword, then the various staff weapons. *prmarily okinawan* |
I won't comment again on the pop culture thing, but the primary weapons in Japan were spears, halberds, bows and guns. Swords came way behind as in any other country.
| Quote: | but for example, noone really has an answer to the katana/ tachi as the main weapon of the mounted warrior, the closest would be the turkish sabres used by the mounted elite. but none of them are 2 handed.
no other cultre as far as i know developed the 2 handed sabre as the primary sidearm of the warrior. |
The tachi was designed to be used as a one handed sword (on horse) as well as two handed(on foot).
| Quote: | | My personal opinion is that fighting with a shield and a one handed sword (even if it's the smallest) against a katana is easier in the point of view of defense and attacking as well, because you can hide from the blows under the shield and do hidden attacks from close distance |
I don't agree. What if your one handed weapon doesn't deliver enough force to penetrate the armor? I would say that fighting in armor with a two handed weapon becomes much more efficient.
Maxime Chouinard
Antrim Bata
Quebec City Kenjutsu
I don't do longsword
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Fri 15 Jul, 2011 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Were two handed swords/weapons used much before good plate mail had been worn (and I don't mean obscure example, but commonly)? |
The 2-Handed axe was a not uncommon weapon from about the 10th century onwards, for the better equippped Vikings as well as Saxon Huscarls, Varangians, etc.
As these were some of the most effective troops, this was obviously an effective weapon combination.
And these troops wore mail only, 3/4 or so length hauberks were about as much as could be expected for armour.
Knights shortly after this period (12th Century) would not uncommonly use the two handed axe when fighting afoot, until 2 handed swords became more popular.
It does make sense that one would want "good" (at least torso covering metallic armour) armour if going without a shield - though the two handed axe also became popular among the Irish around this time, and they were not in general as well armoured.
Just a thought here, also borrowing some thoughts from another thread - in say 11th century Europe, the padding beneath mail was very possibly not as thick as it would be a century later. The two handed axe was a common weapon among the better equipped foot of this time. Maybe the fact that a two handed axe also could deliver significant blunt trauma made it an effective weapon against your better armoured opponents, were a spear or sword would likley have to be used against unarmoured areas to be very effective, or they could deliver some blunt trauma, but not to the extent a two handed axe could.
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William P
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| Posted: Sat 16 Jul, 2011 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Max Chouinard wrote: | | Quote: | | . this may have been due to that reletive iron scarcity everyone seems to talk about. which meant that while they could make arrowheads out of it they couldnt spend vast quantities making iron cased trebuchet ammo. |
Everyone who hasn't looked at the data that is. According to the records, Foreign Iron wasn't in huge demand in Japan, and they did exported a lot of armors, guns and swords to Asian countries.
| Quote: | | that said, these weapons if used were of a great minority. to contrast, in europe. |
Where do you get that from?
| Quote: | | the two most commonly associated hand weapons of that era are the sword. and the morning star for knights, and the axe for the vikings. and im talking about popular culture perception |
When did pop culture became a serious reference for anything?
| Quote: | | in contrast, japan in popular culture is known primarily for the sword, then the various staff weapons. *prmarily okinawan* |
I won't comment again on the pop culture thing, but the primary weapons in Japan were spears, halberds, bows and guns. Swords came way behind as in any other country.
| Quote: | but for example, noone really has an answer to the katana/ tachi as the main weapon of the mounted warrior, the closest would be the turkish sabres used by the mounted elite. but none of them are 2 handed.
no other cultre as far as i know developed the 2 handed sabre as the primary sidearm of the warrior. |
The tachi was designed to be used as a one handed sword (on horse) as well as two handed(on foot).
| Quote: | | My personal opinion is that fighting with a shield and a one handed sword (even if it's the smallest) against a katana is easier in the point of view of defense and attacking as well, because you can hide from the blows under the shield and do hidden attacks from close distance |
I don't agree. What if your one handed weapon doesn't deliver enough force to penetrate the armor? I would say that fighting in armor with a two handed weapon becomes much more efficient. |
the reason is that if it were a common weapon. most people would kn ow about its use by now. but instead the use of ono and to a lesser but not insignificant extent is the exception rather than a common sight in period artwork. and ive seen at least a hundred pictures during the time ive been looking aqt artwork and shown interest in the japanese.
| Quote: | | Ono (斧?) is the Japanese word for an "axe" or a "hatchet", and is used to describe various tools of similar structure. As with axes in other cultures, ono are sometimes employed as weapons. They are usually four feet long with a heavy, over-sized steel blade. The few existing academic references and documented examples of this particular weapon are in connection with the sohei (warrior monks), who also adapt other agricultural tools as weapons. Ono that is specifically designed for military use is of extreme rarity. |
i rest my case... while there are probably some examples, compared to the huge freequency that other weapons appear, suggests that they wernt common weapons
even though the samurai were more than capable of controling the horse without holding onto the reins (you have to be if your going to be a mounted archer.
but my point still stands in noting how jap[an went from jian and tang dao style swords. then suddenly and irreversebly went automatically to using a hand and a half long sabre. the drastic curve of the tachi is due to its nature as a cavalry weapon, but that still doesnt explain the 2 anded nature. which is... once again completely unique andmost other cavalry peoples still dont have such a sword.. when they fight dismounted, they have a shield.
again a more plausible reason is probably due to the quality of their armour (of course this doesnt explain why less well armoured solders didnt use shields to make up for a lack of it)
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Tom King
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| Posted: Sat 16 Jul, 2011 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Reported post Recently I visited a secret treasure trove of 16th century Japanese arms and armor in the Carolina mountains. The body armor used is much lighter than the 19th century armor shown by most Otakus and forum trolls. A common misconception is that the Japanese medieval period took place at the same time as the European medieval period. The american civil war ended before the meiji restoration even began. From the multiple sets of armor i viewed their main composition was a silk gambeson and light 18 to 20 ga mail. Plate breastplates and helmets were made from a similar gauge metal. The amount of exposure offered by these armors was very great, many ,leaving parts of the shoulder, arm, leg, and face exposed to heavy weapons. These armors were definitely not meant to defend against piercing blows from weapons like the spartan Lakonia. The Katana, while an effective cutting weapon, is not designed to get through armor. Greek armor and tactics in my opinion would lead to a fight not based on swordsmanship.
As far as spears go the yari has a tip shaped like a spade. no matter how well this pattern is at piercing once it gets through the armor, it still has to get through the armor. the yari is an odd 6' long and a hoplite spear is around 9'
When it comes to helmets, the mempo wouldn't stop much in regards to a pierceing blow and would most likely buckle under a slashing blow.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 16 Jul, 2011 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: | | The body armor used is much lighter than the 19th century armor shown by most Otakus and forum trolls. |
Tom,
There is absolutely no need to use terms like these. You can get your point across without the put-downs.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 17 Jul, 2011 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: | Recently I visited a secret treasure trove of 16th century Japanese arms and armor in the Carolina mountains. The body armor used is much lighter than the 19th century armor shown by most Otakus and forum trolls. A common misconception is that the Japanese medieval period took place at the same time as the European medieval period. The american civil war ended before the meiji restoration even began. From the multiple sets of armor i viewed their main composition was a silk gambeson and light 18 to 20 ga mail. Plate breastplates and helmets were made from a similar gauge metal. The amount of exposure offered by these armors was very great, many ,leaving parts of the shoulder, arm, leg, and face exposed to heavy weapons. These armors were definitely not meant to defend against piercing blows from weapons like the spartan Lakonia. The Katana, while an effective cutting weapon, is not designed to get through armor. Greek armor and tactics in my opinion would lead to a fight not based on swordsmanship.
As far as spears go the yari has a tip shaped like a spade. no matter how well this pattern is at piercing once it gets through the armor, it still has to get through the armor. the yari is an odd 6' long and a hoplite spear is around 9'
When it comes to helmets, the mempo wouldn't stop much in regards to a pierceing blow and would most likely buckle under a slashing blow. |
| Quote: | | Recently I visited a secret treasure trove of 16th century Japanese arms and armor in the Carolina mountains. |
is your expertise on the subject of samurai armor good enough that you were able to know what you were seeing, you do know the correct names for the individual parts of samurai armor, did you take pictures of this "secret treasure trove" ? How do you know what century armor you were seeing and do you know the difference between samurai armor of that period and the armor of common ashigaru (foot soldiers) who wore a much lower grade of loaned armor? .
| Quote: | | From the multiple sets of armor i viewed their main composition was a silk gambeson and light 18 to 20 ga mail. Plate breastplates and helmets were made from a similar gauge metal. |
Did you have calipers on you? I have seen many samurai armours, both chest armours (dou) and helmets (kabuto) that have proof marks on them from being tested again bullets with out being penetrated, that does not sound like thin sheet metal. Cutting tests have been preformed on kabuto with katana with similar results.
| Quote: | | The amount of exposure offered by these armors was very great, many ,leaving parts of the shoulder, arm, leg, and face exposed to heavy weapons. |
Are you judging samurai armor against European armor? The samurai had many different types of extra armors that were worn under the main armor to cover the gaps in many of the areas you mention, these are not usually displayed on armors for sale or in museums. samurai armor was made to defend against the weapons and tactics used in Japan, not Europe, the Japanese were certainly capable of producing full suits of plate armor if they had wanted or needed to. Japan has a much different climate than Europe, it is extremely hot and humid at times and the the salt from the surrounding ocean corrodes untreated metal.
The Japanese valued freedom of movement in their armor and they produced HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of full suits of armor, way more than were ever made in Europe, that why there are so many existing samurai armors available to purchase and study, go online and see how many full suits of European armor you see for sale.
| Quote: | | These armors were definitely not meant to defend against piercing blows from weapons like the spartan Lakonia. The Katana, while an effective cutting weapon, is not designed to get through armor. |
What reliable reference says that the katana was ever meant as the main weapon of the samurai, before the introduction of firearms to Japan in the 1540s the bow and the naginata and then later the yari that were the dominant weapons, later it was the yari and the tanegashima (matchlock), it was only during the Edo period that swords became the weapons of choice for samurai. Movies are not always accurate.
| Quote: | | As far as spears go the yari has a tip shaped like a spade. no matter how well this pattern is at piercing once it gets through the armor, it still has to get through the armor. the yari is an odd 6' long and a hoplite spear is around 9' |
Samurai yari could be as long as 12 ft and some were longer, I have a yari blade that is 18 inches long alone and some were much longer. Yari had many shapes depending on their use, some were long and straight, some were short and blunt.
| Quote: | | When it comes to helmets, the mempo wouldn't stop much in regards to a pierceing blow and would most likely buckle under a slashing blow |
The 'menpo is not a helmet, it is facial armor, and if you had ever held a real menpo in your hands you would see that they would not easily "buckle" seeing that they were made from thick iron and not sheet metal.
Tameshi (Bullet tested) samurai kabuto.
Tameshi (Bullet tested) dou.
omi yari
Last edited by Eric S on Sun 17 Jul, 2011 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sun 17 Jul, 2011 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Everyone:
Please keep your discussions professional and courteous in tone. Feel free to disagree with each other, but do not make it personal.
This is the last warning. If you have any comments about this act of moderation, message me privately.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 17 Jul, 2011 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: |
(i know it looks like im moving the goalposts a bit but thats probably because i overgeneralised the statement in the first place. my bad. )
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Thats probably the cause of any confusion, when it comes to Japan its best not to say "The Japanese never......" I have been proved wrong before by saying "The Japanese never......... or the ''Japanese did not....'''
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Jason Daub
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| Posted: Sun 17 Jul, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The Japanese valued freedom of movement in their armor and they produced HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of full suits of armor, way more than were ever made in Europe, that why there are so many existing samurai armors available to purchase and study, go online and see how many full suits of European armor you see for sale. |
This is not accurate. There were many tens of thousands, perhaps several hundreds of thousands of harnesses produced by European armourers, when looking at documents you will find individual orders for dozens of harnesses in certain styles, Maximilian von Hapsburg ordered 50 per year for three years in the Burgundian style, Charles the Bold ordered 100 per year, the royal inventories list thousands of harnesses, the inventories of the great houses list thousands of helmets and hundreds of harness of varying quality in their armouries. The smaller houses and knights in proportion. In the fifteenth century Brussels had 73 armourers, add in those in Innsbruck, Milan, Tours, Lyon, Burgos, Seville, another half dozen cities in the Low Countries, etc., and we are looking at a massive supply capacity.
The reason that we do not see many surviving European harness is that they were "used up" over the centuries. The few that we have are trophies of war, or come from armouries where they were held as curiosities. Henry VIII had several hundred (thousands? I don't recall the exact number) harness from the Tower Armoury cut up for jacks for sea service during his early 16th century naval expansion. They were issued to militias, used as a corduroy road (I don't remember the source on this one, but it has stuck with me for years) and sold for scrap metal value. As a comparison how many medieval European swords do we see in pristine condition? How many Japanese? When using the study of material culture we must be very careful about making extrapolations, especially on something as slippery as arms and armour.
'I saw young Harry, -with his bevor on,
His cuisses on his thighs, gallantly arm'd,-
Rise from the ground like feather'd Mercury,
And vaulted with such ease into his seat,
As if an angel dropp'd down from the clouds,
To turn and wind a fiery Pegasus,
And witch the world with noble horsemanship.'
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William P
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| Posted: Sun 17 Jul, 2011 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | Tom King wrote: | Recently I visited a secret treasure trove of 16th century Japanese arms and armor in the Carolina mountains. The body armor used is much lighter than the 19th century armor shown by most Otakus and forum trolls. A common misconception is that the Japanese medieval period took place at the same time as the European medieval period. The american civil war ended before the meiji restoration even began. From the multiple sets of armor i viewed their main composition was a silk gambeson and light 18 to 20 ga mail. Plate breastplates and helmets were made from a similar gauge metal. The amount of exposure offered by these armors was very great, many ,leaving parts of the shoulder, arm, leg, and face exposed to heavy weapons. These armors were definitely not meant to defend against piercing blows from weapons like the spartan Lakonia. The Katana, while an effective cutting weapon, is not designed to get through armor. Greek armor and tactics in my opinion would lead to a fight not based on swordsmanship.
As far as spears go the yari has a tip shaped like a spade. no matter how well this pattern is at piercing once it gets through the armor, it still has to get through the armor. the yari is an odd 6' long and a hoplite spear is around 9'
When it comes to helmets, the mempo wouldn't stop much in regards to a pierceing blow and would most likely buckle under a slashing blow. |
| Quote: | | Recently I visited a secret treasure trove of 16th century Japanese arms and armor in the Carolina mountains. |
is your expertise on the subject of samurai armor good enough that you were able to know what you were seeing, you do know the correct names for the individual parts of samurai armor, did you take pictures of this "secret treasure trove" ? How do you know what century armor you were seeing and do you know the difference between samurai armor of that period and the armor of common ashigaru (foot soldiers) who wore a much lower grade of loaned armor? .
| Quote: | | From the multiple sets of armor i viewed their main composition was a silk gambeson and light 18 to 20 ga mail. Plate breastplates and helmets were made from a similar gauge metal. |
Did you have calipers on you? I have seen many samurai armours, both chest armours (dou) and helmets (kabuto) that have proof marks on them from being tested again bullets with out being penetrated, that does not sound like thin sheet metal. Cutting tests have been preformed on kabuto with katana with similar results.
| Quote: | | The amount of exposure offered by these armors was very great, many ,leaving parts of the shoulder, arm, leg, and face exposed to heavy weapons. |
Are you judging samurai armor against European armor? The samurai had many different types of extra armors that were worn under the main armor to cover the gaps in many of the areas you mention, these are not usually displayed on armors for sale or in museums. samurai armor was made to defend against the weapons and tactics used in Japan, not Europe, the Japanese were certainly capable of producing full suits of plate armor if they had wanted or needed to. Japan has a much different climate than Europe, it is extremely hot and humid at times and the the salt from the surrounding ocean corrodes untreated metal.
The Japanese valued freedom of movement in their armor and they produced HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of full suits of armor, way more than were ever made in Europe, that why there are so many existing samurai armors available to purchase and study, go online and see how many full suits of European armor you see for sale.
| Quote: | | These armors were definitely not meant to defend against piercing blows from weapons like the spartan Lakonia. The Katana, while an effective cutting weapon, is not designed to get through armor. |
What reliable reference says that the katana was ever meant as the main weapon of the samurai, before the introduction of firearms to Japan in the 1540s the bow and the naginata and then later the yari that were the dominant weapons, later it was the yari and the tanegashima (matchlock), it was only during the Edo period that swords became the weapons of choice for samurai. Movies are not always accurate.
| Quote: | | As far as spears go the yari has a tip shaped like a spade. no matter how well this pattern is at piercing once it gets through the armor, it still has to get through the armor. the yari is an odd 6' long and a hoplite spear is around 9' |
Samurai yari could be as long as 12 ft and some were longer, I have a yari blade that is 18 inches long alone and some were much longer. Yari had many shapes depending on their use, some were long and straight, some were short and blunt.
| Quote: | | When it comes to helmets, the mempo wouldn't stop much in regards to a pierceing blow and would most likely buckle under a slashing blow |
The 'menpo is not a helmet, it is facial armor, and if you had ever held a real menpo in your hands you would see that they would not easily "buckle" seeing that they were made from thick iron and not sheet metal.
Tameshi (Bullet tested) samurai kabuto.
Tameshi (Bullet tested) dou.
omi yari
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and those are just one type of yari, the hira sankaku yari, these are the most common types with a straight edged, 3 sided cross section that is very similar to a modern cricket bat
another varient the Sei sankaku yari are yari blades that have a triangular cross section with three equal sides as in an equilateral triangle. they might lend themselves better to armour piercing
here is a total list of variations of yari head
| wikipedia wrote: | Various types of yari points or blades existed. The most common blade was a straight, flat, design that resembles a straight-bladed double edged dagger.[1] This type of blade could cut as well as stab and was sharpened like a razor edge. Though yari is a catchall for spear, it is usually distinguished between kama yari, which have additional horizontal blades, and simple su yari (choku-sō) or straight spears. Yari can also be distinguished by the types of blade cross section: the triangular sections were called sankaku yari and the diamond sections were called ryō-shinogi yari.[1]
Sankaku yari (三角槍, triangle spear) had a point that resembled a narrow spike with a triangular cross-section. A sankaku yari therefore had no cutting edge, only a sharp point at the end. The sankaku yari was therefore best suited for penetrating armor, even armor made of metal, which a standard yari was not as suited to.[1]
Fukuro yari (袋槍, bag spear or socket spear) sported a more European style fitting of the straight head. Instead of the yari's traditional very long embedded tang, an entirely metal socket was slipped over the narrowed end of the pole. The unit was forged as a single piece of both socket and blade. This design was rare next to the traditional 'long-tang' configuration.
Kuda yari (管槍, tube spear) was not very different in construction than another simple choku yari. However for this spear, the upper hand gripped a hollow metal tube that allowed the yari to "screw" while being thrust. This style of sojutsu is typified in the school Owari Kan Ryū.
Kikuchi yari (菊池槍, spear of Kikuchi) were one of the rarest designs, possessing only a single edge. This created a weapon that could be used for hacking and closely resembled a tanto. kikuchi yari are the only yari which use a habaki .
Yajiri nari yari (鏃形槍, spade-shaped spear) had a very broad "spade-shaped" head. It often had a pair of holes centering the two ovoid halves.
Jūmonji yari (十文字槍), cross-shaped spear, also called magari yari (曲槍, curved spear), looked something similar to a trident or partisan and brandished a pair of curved blades around its central lance. Occasionally called maga yari in modern weaponry texts.
Kama yari (鎌槍, sickle spear) gets its name from a peasant weapon called kama (lit. sickle or scythe). However, a kama isn't a scythe as most Westerners think of it, a giant, curved blade connected at right angles to a two-meter-long wooden handle, but rather a much smaller version, with a less dramatically curved blade and a straight wooden handle approximately two feet long.[1]
Kata kama yari (片鎌槍, single-sided sickle spear) had a radical weapon design sporting a blade that was two-pronged. Instead of being constructed like a military fork, a straight blade (as in su yari) was intersected just below its midsection by a perpendicular blade. This blade was slightly shorter than the primary, had curved tips making a parallelogram, and was set off center so that only 1/6 of its length extended on the other side. This formed a kind of messy 'L' shape.
Tsuki nari yari (月形槍, moon-shaped spear) barely looked like a 'spear' at all. A polearm that had a crescent blade for a head, this could be used for slashing and hooking.
Kagi yari (鉤槍, hook spear) had a long blade with a side hook much like that found on a fauchard. This could be used to catch another weapon, or even dismount a rider on horseback.
Bishamon yari possessed some of the most ornate designs for any spear. Running parallel to the long central blade were two 'crescent moon' shaped blades facing outwards. They were attached in two locations by short cross bars, making the head look somewhat like a fleur-de-lis.
Hoko yari An old form of yari possibly from the Nara period,[4] a guard's spear with six-foot pole and eight inch blade either leaf-shape or waved (like the Malay kris) ; a sickle-shaped horn projected on one or both sides at the joint of blade. [5] The hoko yari had a hollow socket like the later period fukuro yari for the pole to fit into rather than a long tang. [6]
Sasaho yari A broad yari that is described as being "leaf shaped" or "bamboo leaf shaped".[7] |
there are ather variations such as the kama yari which have horizontal protrusions, the most famous example is the jumonji yari or the cross shaped spear, which is similar to a european partizan.
personally a katamama yari, with its single hook like protrusin wouklld be nast to a hoplite, you could hokk his shield aside, and even cut hisarm behind the shield, ou could slice his ars, the back of his legs, and maybe just use the protrusions point like a fluke on a halberd and just deliver a very nasty piercing strike..
a kamayari would be a much better weapon than any naginata IMHO
tom king however is right in that a majority of sankaku yari have fairly spatulate points which arnt, unlike a rondel dagger or a late european longswords, very good and poking into gaps in armour, its fairly robust however and seems to make itself good at pushing its way through, though you might need extra effort to do so.
whereas the greek dory is of a fairly uniform design i.e a simple leaf shaped iron blade with a bronze square sectioned buttspike
the shape of the head rarely changed and most different greek spear types are due to shaft length, we essentially have the javelin, the dory, the xyston, which was a cavalry lance, and the sarissa the macedonian inspired pike. only i the sarissas case the buttspike tned into a 4 -flanged counterweight that would , if you broke the sarissa near the butt, make a vicious mace like weapon.
however this is much less of a problem for the samurai since the hoplite cuirass unleike a maille hauberk or a japanse yoroi leaves comparatively little covered and crucially the hoplite helms unlike mempo which usually had an attatched gorget of sorts there isnt as much neck protection for a hoplite, unles the corinthian helms frot partiallycovers the gap between the chin and the top of the cuirass, even thn there would still be gaps to say nothing of the back and sides of the neck. so if one can get past that shield the spartans in serious trouble especially because the samurai has a lot of potential weapons to get through armour such as yoroi toshi,
in comparison if what you say is true, that xiphos is leaf shaped, a design well suited to hacking limbs off but their ponts arnt nearly as good as a tanto for thrusting and being of iron during the time before the persian wars, wouldnt not be the best in terms of durability compared to high tin bronze. so your tip i think would quickly get dull trying to stab at him a few times.
so if what you tell me is true about japanese armour, then if a sparten were to 'bumrush' a samurai and just start stabbinghim with the xiphos, i dont feel too confident that hed be able to actually penetrate his armour too easily. especially a later period samurai with more solid dou and other pieces, plus that apparent underarmour
*can you show me examples of that armour which is supposed to help cover the gaps?
but i remember Samurai: The Story Of Japan's Great Warriors by Stephen Turnbull through the semi see-through sections showing a samurai armour from different periods including that of a ashingaru with a musket. i think it showed a sort of coat with patches of maille in certain areas
after all, my understanding is at a 2 hansded spear has alot more control of
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jumonji yari head
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: |
*can you show me examples of that armour which is supposed to help cover the gaps?
but i remember Samurai: The Story Of Japan's Great Warriors by Stephen Turnbull through the semi see-through sections showing a samurai armour from different periods including that of a ashingaru with a musket. i think it showed a sort of coat with patches of maille in certain areas
after all, my understanding is at a 2 hansded spear has alot more control of |
I often hear people point out the obvious gaps in samurai armor like the arm pit area, and the lack of armor in certain areas like the back of the thigh and calf. First you have to realize that samurai armor as we know it was developed to be worn on horse back and all later samurai armors kept some of these elements even when horses were not as well used in battle.
If you picture a samurai on a horse imagine his feet on the stirrups, in this position with his knees bent up, the back of the thigh and the calf were not showing. The kusazuri (a skirt of plates attached to a leather belt which is laced to the bottom of the dou ) protect the hips, groin, and butt. the thigh armor (haidate) and the shin armor (suneate) protected the exposed areas of the leg. The inside of the arm was not showing and the ''kote'' (armored sleeves} protected the exposed forearm. The kabuto (helmet) had a shield like structure along the back edge "shikoro" that hung down and protected the back of the neck and upper back. The "sode" (shoulder guards) protected the upper profile. The weapon of the day was the arrow, unless the mounted samurai could be knocked off of his horse. Naginata wielded by another samurai and tachi were the weapons a samurai would face if another mounted samurai got close enough.
What is not seen is any auxiliary armor being worn under the outer armor. The throat was protected by the ''yodare-kake'' (throat guard) of whatever type of ''mengu" (facial armor) was worn but underneath that could be a ''guruwa'' or a ''nodowa''
protecting the neck.
For the body there were several types of auxiliary armors. For the arm pit area there was the'' wakibiki''. An armored vest which covered a larger area than the ''wakibiki'' was the ''manju no wa'', and the ''manchira'' as another type of armored vest.
Here is a good link to check out also. http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/index.html
There were other auxiliary armors, abdomen protectors worn as belts and even armored pants.
Mengu of the type known as "menpo", showing the "yodare-kake" (throat guard).
Guruwa, throat and neck protector.
Nodowa, throat and neck protector.
Wakibiki, solid aron plates which protected the arm pit.
Manju no wa, a vest lined with armor.
Manchira, a vest lined with armor.
Kusari abdomen protector, a kidney belt lined with chain armor.
Kusari hakama, pants lined with chain armor.
Kusari hakama (close up showing the chain armor).
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 5:13 am Post subject: |
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"However, Japanese armor has, for the sake of easier movement, unavoidable and exposed weak points, and it is this design defect that is targeted by the omote set of techniques in Katori Shinto-ryu."
-- Otake-shihan
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William P
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | William P wrote: |
*can you show me examples of that armour which is supposed to help cover the gaps?
but i remember Samurai: The Story Of Japan's Great Warriors by Stephen Turnbull through the semi see-through sections showing a samurai armour from different periods including that of a ashingaru with a musket. i think it showed a sort of coat with patches of maille in certain areas
after all, my understanding is at a 2 hansded spear has alot more control of |
I often hear people point out the obvious gaps in samurai armor like the arm pit area, and the lack of armor in certain areas like the back of the thigh and calf. First you have to realize that samurai armor as we know it was developed to be worn on horse back and all later samurai armors kept some of these elements even when horses were not as well used in battle.
If you picture a samurai on a horse imagine his feet on the stirrups, in this position with his knees bent up, the back of the thigh and the calf were not showing. The kusazuri (a skirt of plates attached to a leather belt which is laced to the bottom of the dou ) protect the hips, groin, and butt. the thigh armor (haidate) and the shin armor (suneate) protected the exposed areas of the leg. The inside of the arm was not showing and the ''kote'' (armored sleeves} protected the exposed forearm. The kabuto (helmet) had a shield like structure along the back edge "shikoro" that hung down and protected the back of the neck and upper back. The "sode" (shoulder guards) protected the upper profile. The weapon of the day was the arrow, unless the mounted samurai could be knocked off of his horse. Naginata wielded by another samurai and tachi were the weapons a samurai would face if another mounted samurai got close enough.
What is not seen is any auxiliary armor being worn under the outer armor. The throat was protected by the ''yodare-kake'' (throat guard) of whatever type of ''mengu" (facial armor) was worn but underneath that could be a ''guruwa'' or a ''nodowa''
protecting the neck.
For the body there were several types of auxiliary armors. For the arm pit area there was the'' wakibiki''. An armored vest which covered a larger area than the ''wakibiki'' was the ''manju no wa'', and the ''manchira'' as another type of armored vest.
Here is a good link to check out also. http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/index.html
There were other auxiliary armors, abdomen protectors worn as belts and even armored pants.
Mengu of the type known as "menpo", showing the "yodare-kake" (throat guard).
Guruwa, throat and neck protector.
Nodowa, throat and neck protector.
Wakibiki, solid aron plates which protected the arm pit.
Manju no wa, a vest lined with armor.
Manchira, a vest lined with armor.
Kusari abdomen protector, a kidney belt lined with chain armor.
Kusari hakama, pants lined with chain armor.
Kusari hakama (close up showing the chain armor).
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and just to clarify, these extras are more prevalent to o-yoroi, or more the versions of tosei gusoku?
i usually look at japanese warfare of the imjin wars and battle segikihara and those of nobunaga, hideyoshi etc etc of the later sengoku. where the role of the samurai had changed, and his role as a mounted archer had been diminished.
and became more a footsolder, though id agree that his armour is a progression from tht formulae that is no longer useless at fighting on foot, and is easier to make and maintain.
where out of curiosity did you find that image of riveted maille between the plate and the dou,
since even myarmouries article on japanese armour notes it as being largely butted and not even in the 4 in 1 pattern, that is known to the japanese as nanban kusari
nanban gusari i.e european style 4 in 1 maille is uncommon, to see it rivited is even moreso. every source ive seen shows japanese kusari being of butted or 'keyring' like construction.
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html
http://www.modaruniversity.org/Blackmaille18.htm#_edn7
http://www.caradoc.org/~iain/gusari.html
[quote= "caradoc.org"] In all examples of Japanese mail, the mail itself was sewn to a backing of cloth or leather, and was never left bare. Sometimes the mail was "sandwiched" between two layers of cloth or leather. To prevent rusting, the links themselves were lacquered, generally in black. This was true even if the rest of the armor were made of a more eye-catching color.
Most Japanese mail was not riveted, relying instead on the strength of the metal itself to hold the butted links together.
The standard 4:1 "international" mail pattern became common in Japan near the end of the Momoyama period, and continued in popular use even to the end of the Edo period. [/u][/quote]
it seems that the concept of riveting their maille never seemed to have caught on.. i always knew that the japanese were odd.
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Michael Curl
Location: Northern California, US Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 487
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Jason Daub wrote:
| Quote: | This is not accurate. There were many tens of thousands, perhaps several hundreds of thousands of harnesses produced by European armourers, when looking at documents you will find individual orders for dozens of harnesses in certain styles, Maximilian von Hapsburg ordered 50 per year for three years in the Burgundian style, Charles the Bold ordered 100 per year, the royal inventories list thousands of harnesses, the inventories of the great houses list thousands of helmets and hundreds of harness of varying quality in their armouries. The smaller houses and knights in proportion. In the fifteenth century Brussels had 73 armourers, add in those in Innsbruck, Milan, Tours, Lyon, Burgos, Seville, another half dozen cities in the Low Countries, etc., and we are looking at a massive supply capacity.
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Where did you get the sources that say how many harness's maximililan and charles ordered? I would love to have them.
E Pluribus Unum
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Jen Miilu
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 12:15 pm Post subject: Have we found a conclusion???! |
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Hello everyone.
It seems that this long running debate may finially be ending. Being new to this forum...after reading through many of the convincing arguments that logically due to the shield the Spartan would win!!
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Michael Curl
Location: Northern California, US Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 487
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Not unless he can outrun a horse 
E Pluribus Unum
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Moses Jones
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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I think the 5'10" 180 lb average spartan would have a significant advantage over a 5'3" 130 lb average samurai. But personal skill and luck is what will determine the real winner.
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William P
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Moses Jones wrote: | | I think the 5'10" 180 lb average spartan would have a significant advantage over a 5'3" 130 lb average samurai. But personal skill and luck is what will determine the real winner. |
personally i think that a tosei gusoku wearing samurai of the imjin wars would win primarily due to haveing stronger armour and a matchlock musket.
a lack of shield isnt as much of a problem. since the hoplite shield is hard to be used offensively
a xiphos would have serious trouble getting through samurai armour, a ykamayari would have alot less problems slicing a hoplites legs out from under hhim. or hooking his shield away and hen impaling him
simply put the saspis due to its method of holding, isnt as manuverable and is usually on the heavier end of shields. a viking shield or a kiteshield is different they can more easily cover greater areas you can more easily bypass a aspis and xiphos with a katana than you can bypass a viking shield and sword.
and lets ont also forget... you can grab a spears shaft, and a 8 foot spear held near the end with 1 hand isnt as easy to control as a 2 handed spear.
shields can be beaten, and an aspis, a weapon designed more for phalanx fighting.. is more easily beaten in individual combat.
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Jason Daub
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jul, 2011 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Where did you get the sources that say how many harness's maximililan and charles ordered? I would love to have them. |
I first saw them mentioned in Embleton & Howe - The Medieval Soldier, I tracked the references down in 05-06? and had them saved, unfortunately it and a lot of other research I had have gone to join the great hard drive in the sky. I think it might have been Bob Reed posting on the FireStryker or Armour Archive boards who mentioned the original documents??? I have to find the primary source again, sorry.
'I saw young Harry, -with his bevor on,
His cuisses on his thighs, gallantly arm'd,-
Rise from the ground like feather'd Mercury,
And vaulted with such ease into his seat,
As if an angel dropp'd down from the clouds,
To turn and wind a fiery Pegasus,
And witch the world with noble horsemanship.'
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