[Johan K]

I've been a lurker for some time now, but this seemed the kind of question you could help me out with.

My longsword group practices almost exclusively with the Rawlings synthetic wasters these days, so I feel my time has come to add some of these new toys to the list too. However, the Knight Shop sells two kinds of synthetic wasters: the "normal" ones and a "pro-line" which have stainless steel pomels, crossguards and supposedly special blades.

As I've never come across this pro-line before I was wondering: Have you? What's your opinion on them? How to they compete against the "normal" synthetic wasters? Can the two be combined in sparring (as the blade is different) ?

aka: Are they worthwhile?

[Kel Rekuta]

I recently obtained a pair of these at the HEMAC event in Dijon. As it was explained to me, the Pro Line blades have a polished finish that allow slightly better winding action. They are less whippy than previous generations of Knight Shop blades. Furthermore, the normal (practically useless) moulded rubber guard is replaced with a stainless steel casting in the same shape. These guards were flying off the table at the event, for obvious reasons.

IMHO, these are better than wooden wasters to train newbies but should never be mistaken for a sword simulator appropriate to testing technique. Our people found them vastly amusing to play with without any safety equipment. We have had a few bouts with them after class, once the wobbly pops were opened. I must admit, I am dumbfounded that so much of the historical sword community has been using them for tournaments.

BTW, the guys that designed and produced these are excellent folks dedicated to the HEMA community. If your group decided to use these products as basic training weapons, you won't go wrong dealing with the Knight Shop.

[Job Overbeek]

The normal blades are very whippy, the pro-line less so but still not great.
Anyway imo the best approximation is using a pro-line sword with metal guard and plastic pommel, if you use a metal pommel as well your POB comes somewhere on the hilt, with only the guard it's roughly at the right spot imo.

[Colin F.]

[Will Law]

As what is probably best described as an interested idiot in medieval-period swordsmanship (no HEMA clubs near me, worse luck), I bought a couple of the "normal" wasters a year or so ago, and I and my friends find them a fun means to fighting one another without causing any serious harm - I wouldn't strike someone in an unprotected head/face/neck with one, but otherwise they seem safe enough as long as you don't mind skinned knuckles and the occasional (small) bruise.

In fact I fought a few bouts with them just this weekend, and since I'm probably too inexperienced to pick up on their shortcomings I really like them. People who do a lot of steel-on-steel fighting seem to prefer the pro-line blades and metal guards, but until I'm a considerably better swordsman I doubt I'll worry about that. Also, I think the stiffer pro-line blades may necessitate some padding worn against thrusts - even my "whippy" blades aren't too comfortable to get stabbed by.

TLDR version: No real substitute for steel from a handling point of view*, safer than wooden wasters**, great fun to have at one another with***.

* Opinion not based on personal experience - just an impression picked up from discussions between people more experienced then I.

** I assume - I haven't owned a wooden sword since I was a child, but looking back I don't understand how we didn't maim one another with them.

*** This I can attest to.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Will nice first post and what I don't like about the plastic wasters is that when too flexible it becomes difficult to get a feel for techniques when at the sword and being very light one can snipe with them too easily without " consequences " and this doesn't simulate a real fight as well as steel.

If you don't have any good training books I recommend the ones by Hugh Knight as very well written and clear pics.

Here is an old Topic thread about the books and how to order them from LuLu:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...light=lulu

I regularly refer to this book and the other books written by Hugh to use for solo practice or just to remind me how the techniques are supposed to work, at least with his interpretations.

Books can't really help you get the feel of steel on steel, timing and pressure, distance etc .... but at least they can give you an idea of how the techniques work.

For someone who has some actual experience the books are great in refreshing one's memory: Having muscle memory of having done some of the techniques obviously makes this more efficient.

[Tod Glenn]

I recently bought the new pro line from Purpleheart armory. They do not come with steel guards - at least in the US. That is an additional cost option. As I understand it, the 'sparring' are the original style, while the pro-line are stiffer. I have also been informed (via the HEMA Alliance) that there is a new version - the proline Xtreme - that are stiffer yet.

While synthetics can never replace steel, they offer a less costly alternative to steel that can do quite will and are much safer. HEMA protective equipment is still fare from mature and can be quite expensive for the beginner. Wooden wasters are all well and good, but can be quite dangerous in the thrust.

I think one should look at synthetic wasters as another option for the practitioner - certainly not a replacement for steel - but a great way to get started in a relatively safe and realistic manner.

[Will Law]

Thanks for the book reccomendations John, I will look into them. Not that I'm short of books - I've already got a few hardcopy HEMA manuals, and innumberable .pdf downloads, but more are always welcome. What I really could do with more of is sparring partners, but I have high hopes that my more enthusiastic friends will prove willing.

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Tod Glenn]

We started with Col Steel synthetics. While inexpensive, they have their problems. They don't feel like real swords - more like a club. As noted, the grip is shorter than the Rawlings. They don't flex much so thrusts are pretty much like a wood waster. We had one person actually cut by one. I would not use one without a mask.

Fencing masks are really not that expensive, and very cheap versus losing an eye. Watch ebay, or buy one from a place like Absolute or Blue Gauntlet for about $45.

[Matt Easton]

I recommend them highly, but then I would as my group (Schola Gladiatoria) is one of those that helped develop them (along with Boar's Tooth, School of the Sword and Academy of Historical Fencing).

We regularly use them for beginners drilling weapons and beginner and more advanced sparring weapons, alongside steel for the more advanced people.

I personally only now use the proline 'xtreme' blades with the steel crossguards and plastic pommels (though some people in the group use the steel pommels as well). I also highly recommend the single-handers and new basket hilts. The flexibility issue compared to steel is moot, as the proline xtreme blades are stiffer than a Hanwei sabre or rapier and about as stiff (or perhaps more than) a Hanwei feder...

You can use any of the versions against any of the other versions, but the stiffer versions will have an advantage in the bind and hit a bit harder. The steel crossguard is far better at protecting your hands and makes the weapon weight more realistic - the plastic guards make the weapon lighter and quicker, of course.

As stated above, of course a steel sword is more like a steel sword, but a plastic sword is obviously safer than a steel sword, as well as being much cheaper.

Regards,
Matt

[Benjamin Floyd II]

I got my Absolute Fencing masks for less than the Rawlings swords cost ($50). They don't have to be expensive to be good masks. Unless you're going slow, you're just asking to get a eye out.

I like the new Rawlings (less than steel), hate the Cold Steel, and like the new Hanwei feders. If we're fighting harder than normal, it's nice to use the Rawlings instead of the Hanweis because you can use less protection with less risk.

[Will Law]

Having said that fencing masks are expensive, that was true when I last checked eighteen months ago, but I now notice that the Knight Shop has brought out a budget range (I'm in the UK; all you USA residents make me constantly jealous with your cheaper consumer goods!) so I can probably buy one or two...that would be a) safer and b) allow more realistic techniques. I reckon I'll do that, although having bought head protection I think I may be starting down a slippery slope of buying/making an array weapons in wooden and thereafter some padding to protect myself from them!