[Jeffrey Faulk]

Hello,

I've recently acquired the Windlass Steelcrafts scimitar. I know it's not that great a sword but it was within my price range and I view it as a good opportunity to customize!

My plans are to engrave or etch the scabbard fittings, change the grip, better sharpen the blade and possibly engrave it, and make a sword belt or baldric to go with it. However, the Internet is lamentably short of resources as far as the belt/baldric goes. About all I have managed to gather is that very frequently they featured metal fittings, and there were often large tassels and cords?

I lived in West Africa for a while (north-eastern Nigeria), and as such I saw a good number of modern African swords; those had some leather cords involved, but for the most part they generally used a quite short baldric, one that looped over the shoulder instead of over the chest. Doesn't seem quite secure to me, and isn't really accurate for the sword I have anyway!

I thank everybody who responds to this thread in advance, and look forward to finding out more about this! I may post pictures here as customization progresses...

[Sean Flynt]

Here's something that might interest you, from an old thread ( http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ght=sancho ) about the sword belt of Sancho IV:

The belt itself is fabric, with a silk border, as described in an article by David Nicolle ( http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.php/gla...view/59/60 ):

A preference for baldrics over sword-belts seems to have remained characteristic of medieval North Africa. The Marinid armies of 14th century Morocco, including the ruler's elite guards, still carried their swords in what was by then known as the ‘bedouin fashion’22. Within the Iberian peninsula pictorial sources show the baldric being used on both sides of the
religious frontier during the earlier medieval centuries. By the 13th century, however, Christian knights used sword-belts while squires used baldrics, clearly showing that the latter was regarded as a less prestigious way of carrying a sword23.

Nevertheless some Arab-Andalusian fashions survived this change, including the use of sword-belts made of highly decorated fabric rather than leather, which was almost universally used elsewhere in Western Europe. Amongst surviving examples of such a fabric sword-belts is that of the sword of Sancho IV of Castile now in the Capilla Mayor of Toledo Cathedral. Here the scabbard is attached to the belt by leather lockets while the belt itself is of light green galloon (a narrow close-woven braid) with a red silk border.

[Jeffrey Faulk]

Hmm, that does sound interesting. Any pictures?

I'm not necessarily interested in North Africa, though... more into the Levantine, Arab, Persian, or Ottoman types. The only thing I have to go on right now is a small picture from a volume of mythology, showing a Persian warrior with what appears to be a belt with two straps hanging down to hold up the scabbard. The straps are fixed to the belt with some kind of metal fittings, looks like. It's a very small picture from a manuscript, though... I've noted a few belts on various auction sites, but almost none of them have suspension systems.

[Jeffrey Faulk]

Well, after the better part of two hours on Wikimedia Collections (a surprisingly good source of historical images), I've turned up a number of pictures. I do apologize if any of them break the formatting or anything!

Mainly what I want to know is how accurate these are, and if they are typical for Turkish or Persian sword belts. If it's not too much trouble, how they may have been constructed would be great too...









These two are Russian in origin, but I thought they may be based upon Turkish or Persian blades?





It seems that many Turkish soldiers wore their swords stuck through their sashes... was this typical of most swords, or did they usually only do this with shorter weapons like the yataghan?



Thanks for your time, all...

[Timo Nieminen]

[Boris Bedrosov]

[Sa'ar Nudel]

Jeffrey, I do not whish to discourage you, but if you want to refit your "scimitar" more historically it is going to take a lot of work, depends on how in-depth accuracy you want. If it was me, I would have done one out of two options: 1) take apart the entire thing to use only the blade (good for itself) as a basis for a thorough custom job, including a scabbard;
2) try to file off the relief on the crossguard and use the sword as-is.
For some great historic items you can look here, http://www.oriental-arms.com/ , type shamshir in the search option.

As for the suspension outfit, there were several methods and materials in the Arab/Islamic world - waist belt, baldric, edge up & edge down. Thick colorfull cords were quite common, as you can see in the following photos.

[Timo Nieminen]

Sa'ar, I'm interested to see so many swords with ring mounts that would lead me to expect them to be worn edge down being worn edge up. Would these same swords be worn by the same people edge down when mounted (so edge up to keep it out of the way when on foot)?

[Sa'ar Nudel]

[Jeffrey Faulk]

Sa'ar,

Do you mind explaining how you mean "in depth"?

Bear in mind that my finances are quite limited, so while accuracy is nice, ultimately the customization of this scimitar is going to have to be cost-effective. As such, I plan to reuse the scabbard and the fittings as much as I can. This will involve a certain degree of my personal taste, which may not be as historically accurate as some may like, but ultimately what matters to me is that I am happy with the end result.

My plan is currently--

1. Sharpen blade

2. Replace hilt; I am not sure as yet what style I might go with.

3. Make a belt and suspension rig; I have decided that I will not use a baldric, although this would be a cheaper solution-- I could simply purchase some curtain cord with tassels from the local Hobby Lobby if I was going to do that, but the belt poses more of a degree of challenge that intrigues me. I will almost certainly have to purchase a buckle and strap-end from somewhere, though...

4. Decorate the scabbard fittings and perhaps tool the scabbard leather itself. It's thick, but doable; I tested on an inconspicuous area of the back side.

Out of curiosity, I note in pictures like this:



and:


Belts are frequently decorated with metal plaques on them? Could attachment points for the suspension have been covered by these plaques?

Please give feedback and thoughts... I appreciate the conversation going on here!

[Sa'ar Nudel]

Geffrey, I'll try to elaborate: Islamic shamshirs (a.k.a. "scimitars") have great diversity, it is no "official issue, one model", even the simple munition grade. First, the blade can be of either persian wootz, arab imitation plain steel, pattern welded or European trade blade (both civilian and military saber-like). Second, the cross guard can be plain or embellished with engraving, silver or gold koftgar; could be made of wootz itself, plain steel or bronze; long (Turkish style) or short (Persian style). Third, the grip could be wood, cow-horn, buffalo-horn, elephant ivory, walrus ivory; its pommel area could be bulbous (Turkish, with tassel hole or without), straight or bent (Arab/Syrian). Fourth, the scabbard can show great diversity for itself, but a wooden core is almost mandatory; the cover can be single-piece thin sheet metal, possibly silver; it can be leather with metal fittings, plain or not. The stitching of the leather on the hidden side is very difficult to replicate currently, it is made of tiny metal springs, but simple string stitching was present also, mostly within Bedouin regions.
As you can see, a lot of "custom options" within the margins of history. Of course I understand the limits of a budget, especially if this is going to be a "working" sword. I think keeping the original scabbard (strong and decent for itself) with just minor modifications will save you great amount of money. The original guard is a shame but the wooden grip isn't so bad. You can look in the fleamarket or car-booth sale for leather belts and make a suspension rig. I'd like to see any progress, as I have my own thoughts of a similar projects, just with a Cold Steel saber

[Jeffrey Faulk]

Thank you for your response. I take it that as long as I use basic Islamic decorative motifs and grip types, there really is no reason to consider it 'unauthentic', merely unusual?

A question about grips, however, if you would be so kind:

Is it normal for them to be quite thin near the guard when viewed top-down? An example, from my Windlass scimitar:



Note that the pommel/knob end is much broader than by the guard. Is this typical? Would it be out of the question to make the sides more parallel?

I have rather large hands, so this doesn't quite feel right to me. The main issue with making the sides of the grip more parallel is that they would obstruct the rear langets of the guard; I am still not sure how I will resolve that issue.

[Sa'ar Nudel]

There is no problem with your request: the sides can be parallel, the langets usualy dig-in the panels and have a recess made for them, sometimes there is a thin metal wire bind around the entire langet length. To give a better look (and historically correct) you can place a thin sheet metal (either brass or steel/silver) strip all along the circumference of the grip. http://www.petpeoplesplace.com/petstore/pet-i...581411.jpg
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/shamshir1h.jpg
http://www.antiques.co.uk/images/items/1157/m...332592.jpg

[Jeffrey Faulk]

Perhaps I was a bit inexact. The guard itself is quite narrow, only about 5/8 inch or so wide. As such even the grip it currently has is a bit large. If I made the sides of the grip more parallel, the rear langets would be very deep within the grip, instead of only slightly below flush. Do you understand better the issue?

A solution I have been thinking of is wrapping the junction of the grip and langets with wire, similar to the second grip you posted. Would that work with, say, an Arabian sayf grip? This way the problem would be less noticeable.

I am also considering removing the guard and making a grip somewhat like a shashka or yataghan, but I don't think that would be particularly correct, especially as then the scabbard would not be correct for the new grip.

[Sa'ar Nudel]