[Michael Curl]

So we all have seen various lists of european armour and I was wondering if anybody had any access to some historical japanese suits, of course with type listed as well.

[William Frisbee]

Yep...

Japanese armour was slightly lighter than the same era European armour. Mostly due to the fact that the legs and arms are not completely covered in iron/steel, rather

I had a full mid 1500's set, complete with Okegawa dou, kabuto and everything else, total weight is right around 50-55lbs.

Bishamon and shino-gote were mostly small plates and chain, tsutsu-gote were closer to european vambracers, but didn't include any real type of cop for the elbow, and limited rebracers to chain with floating plates.

Same issue with the legs. Lower legs were typically splinted styles of suneate, but the occasional tsubo style does pop up, very similar to say greek or roman greaves with integrated knee protection...


All in... Japanese armour of the same era was lighter, but didn't cover as much of the wearer.

[Bartek Strojek]

[Michael Curl]

"Bishamon and shino-gote were mostly small plates and chain, tsutsu-gote were closer to european vambracers, but didn't include any real type of cop for the elbow, and limited rebracers to chain with floating plates. "

Are those all types of Kote? My knowledge of Japanese armour is pretty much limited to one book and anthony bryant's website. Another question I have, what armour did they have for the waist? It always seemed like the kusazuri hanged far below the do so I was wondering if that area had any armour.

[William Frisbee]

[William Frisbee]

[Michael Curl]

Ya I know those parts but I was always under the impression that they tended to hang rather low and left an open spot between the do and the kusazuri/haidate that could be thrust through with only cloth in the way. Is that true or is there something else there or is there not enough of a gap.

Edit: also, have you posted your kit on the kits and harness's thread? I would love to see it.

[Bartek Strojek]

[Michael Curl]

I think blood red roses said the average person (looking at mercenarys) was about 5'6"

[William Frisbee]

http://www.plimoth.org/discover/myth/4-ft-2.php

And I quote:

[William Frisbee]

[Greg Mele]

William,

Well, two things with your data:

1. It is closer to 5'7 than 5'6" -

2. It is also a mean, averaged across class. This last part is quite significant in pre-industrial society, as the nobility and gentry are often a couple inches taller, do to greater protein in the diet.

As a rule, Medieval man was smaller, but men of 6' or more were hardly freakish giants. What is probably best to say is that the average was a few inches shorter, varying by class and locale. It's probably best to put it this way: there are a fair number of men who are 6'5 today, but they are tall enough to be notable in a crowd - that is much how someone like Richard I or Edward III - both estimated at about 6'2 - 6'3 from skeletal fines, would have looked in a comparable room of contemporaries.

Best,

Greg

[Carl Massaro]

I'll have to dig up my Archaeology book somewhere...it had a good section on "average" historical heights and how they are misleading. I agree with Gregory. It is often assumed that historically, people were much shorter than they are today, but as Gregory pointed out, this is an average, often based across one class. Even if based between several social classes, it is still misleading as it is an average.

From what I have read, yes, there was a slight variation in height, but not nearly as drastic as people think. Take a look at the variation in the heights of modern adults the next time you walk through a mall. You will see men who are under 5'5" tall, and men who are over 6'. If one of the shorter men you saw happened to have a suit made for him that was on display in a museum 500 years from now, I am sure people walking by the display in the future would comment on how small everyone was back then.

At the Metropolitan Museum of Art, there are some suits made for men who were under 6' tall, around 6' tall, and one maximilian suit that was made for a very large, barrel-chested man who must have stood over 6'5".

The same type of averaging is also misleading when talking of historical life-expectancies. We often hear that "The average person only lived until they were 30 or 40." Or, "you were considered old at 25." The problem with this is that they give people a sense that everyone died of old age before they were 50. Once again, they are averages and account for children dying, and people dying of disease and infections earlier in life. Since ancient times, the likelyhood of dying earlier is greater, but should disease or violence be avoided, people were living into their seventies and sometimes older.

[Carl Massaro]

By the way, about armor weight, even though I would say that Japanese armor is generally slightly lighter, there was also a lot of overlap in armor weight between the two cultures. Many suits from both cultures fall in the rough 50lb range. The example of Japanese armor listed above was 50-55lbs - well within the weight range of certain types of full European plate. The Metropolitan Museum example of European plate that Bartek listed above was 52lbs.

On the other end of the spectrum I have seen full suits of Japanese armor in the low 40lb range, and I have seen suits of European armor in the high 60lb range, but many examples from both cultures meet in the middle.

[Eric S]

[William Frisbee]

[William Frisbee]

[Sean Manning]

What level of proof are we talking about here? I'd expect that armour with teppo-proof components would be heavier than some of the later armour which was unlikely to be used in combat. It might be interesting to get the weight of individual pieces, since the materials of Japanese armour were so diverse.

[William Frisbee]

[Eric S]

Early 1600s Hosokawa clan full suit of armor in the Etchu style. It has an Etchu style zunari kabuto and a real Iyozane dou , Iyozane are true individual large scales, the dou is constructed in 1 piece with no hinge, the wearer just pulls it open to wear it. The entire suit of armor with armor box weighs 39lbs. This type of armor was light weight and maneuverable.