Late 15 century handgun -- myArmoury.com

Patrik Eriksson · Posted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 12:06 pm Post subject: Late 15 century handgun

I´m looking for any material abou a late 15 century handgun! Around 1470-1480

Jack W. Englund · Posted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 12:19 pm Post subject:

This was a "transitional" period ( Matchlocks to Wheel locks.) so why ???

Patrik Eriksson · Posted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject:

why what?

Randall Moffett · Posted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 2:29 pm Post subject:

1470-1480 the transition to wheel locks? Not from what I know of evidence wise. Earliest picture of it is dated no earlier than 1496 to 1511 by Da Vinci but as can be seen by the time frame under some debate. The first firmly dated picture of one is a german one from 1507. There are no remaining guns that are dated to earlier than this with the wheel lock mechanism on it. So if you add some twenty plus years might work.

Basically you are looking at a few things regarding personal arms

The pipe/stick gun. Basically it is a gun barrel (pipe) with a stick that is inserted into a rear cavity. These are fired by a touch hole on the top or side at the back of the barrel. sort of 2nd quarter of the 14th or mid 14th on into the 16th century.

You have the stocked guns. These can have fairly crude stocks to relatively nice ones with the barrel affixed by one or more bands of iron. Seem to be a 15th century thing. Likely late in the 1st quarter or the 2nd quarter.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...lm_nr1.jpg

Sometimes these have a trigger somewhat like a crossbow that moves a fuse.

Here is a good picture
http://www.silcom.com/~vikman/isles/scriptori...match.html

These seem to come along sometime in the second or third decade of the 15th but into more general use after 1455 or 1475 where as they seem somewhat rare.

There is also the hackbutt or hook gun that was used usually on some form of defensive structure such as battlements. The long metal tube would have a hook on the bottom for this.

Take a look at Bert Halls Renaissance Warfare for better info.

RPM

Jack W. Englund · Posted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 4:09 pm Post subject:

Thom R. · Posted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject:

there is a new book out just in the past 6 months on medieval handgonnes from Osprey and for the price it is actually quite good imo.

http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.1849081557.html

Recently, I made a handgonne for that 1470-1510 time frame which I showed here:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18184&start=22

It is based on a 75 caliber smoothbore from the Rifle Shoppe. I didn't get any feedback on it here, this often seems like a very sword centric forum, but several re-enactors of that late 15th c. time frame gave me some good feedback on 2 other forums. there are several groups that re-enact the Burgundian Army of Charles the Bold which had quite a few handgonners.

http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_armies_burg.html

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 6:05 pm Post subject:

Julian Reynolds · Posted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 1:25 am Post subject:

Patrik,

As Thom says, this forum tends towards bladed weapons. I have found the following forum a veritable treasure trove of images and expertise on early handgonnes of the period you are looking at:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.ph...sprune=365

You'll have to trawl through a few posts, but it's worth it (eg. see below).

Julian

(sorry for re-directing you to another forum, bad etiquette)

Lin Robinson · Posted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 4:29 am Post subject:

Thom....

I just missed your post or I certainly would have responded. Great job and a great looking piece. Have you fired it yet?

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

Julian Reynolds · Posted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 8:19 am Post subject:

Thanks Chad. Some forums I've been on don't like sharing their toys, in a manner of speaking!

Besides, there are lots of pics on the other forum which I could post on here, but it would take me ages, would probably be bad form for copyright reasons, and would lose a lot of context in the transfer.

Vikingsword are a good resource, but they have a strict policy of not discussing or featuring reproductions, which is where myArmoury comes in as a great many people on here are interested in owning reproductions of original pieces. Between the two forums (and Armour Archive) you are pretty well served!

Anyway, enough derailing of this thread, sorry. I'll post a pic of another pole handgonne (see below), supposedly from 1500 (although the style of it seems much earlier 15thC). I'm hoping to reproduce this one at some point this year, in wood, though, as a wallhanger/curio (British gun laws are a bit too strict for me to have a true reproduction and hang it on my wall!).

Julian

Randall Moffett · Posted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 9:55 am Post subject:

Jack,

No worries. I learn new stuff every day from some one. It is what makes forums and gatherings so useful and fun.

Julian,

I know several people over in the UK that do have such equipment and have all the proper authorization but can see where you are coming from. I know for the really short barrels some people hide a longer barrel inside the stock to comply with the non-handgun catagory.

I have seen such pipe guns from the late 15th why do you think it is dated poorly?

Good site by the way. I will have to look more of it over once I have some free time.

RPM

Julian Reynolds · Posted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 2:33 pm Post subject:

Randall,

Briefly (so I don't completely derail this thread) - ownership of a working replica of such a handgonne (either a short barreled version held on a Firearms Certificate, or a longer version - over 24" barrel etc. - held on a Shotgun Certificate) is perfectly possible (I hold both types of certificate). However, I would not be permitted to display either weapon - I would have to keep them locked away in a secure cabinet in order to comply with the law. I want to be able to display these and the only way I could is by making totally inert non-firing and non-convertible copies (easily done out of wood) or by buying antique ones (out of the question due to cost).

Below is an example of a copy I have made, for my own amusement.

Back to the topic, the reason I doubt the dating is that, by this time (1500) handgonnes had already evolved into hackbuts (or whatever terminology you care to use) that had a recognizable rudimentary stock. The first pic I posted was of a handgonne dated 1481 that would have been inlet into a stock, as opposed to stuck on the end of a pole. So a date of 1500 would make that pole handgonne rather archaic. That is not to say that they did not exist, just that things had moved on by then, that's all.

Julian

Randall Moffett · Posted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 2:59 pm Post subject:

Sorry i should have caught the display purpose. Understand completely.

That is a nice reproduction you have made. I hope to buy a functioning replica of a pipe gun in the future but who knows if I would ever use it but at least I have the option I guess.

As far as the pipe guns. They seem to be the most commonly depicted fire arm in art of the last decade of the 15th and when we have enough detail they come up fairly common in inventories. Interestingly Henry VIII even had a large number of them in his inventory when he became king. That said the one piece barrel gun is fairly common as well. OF the three individual firearms I figure the hackbutt was the least common c.1500.

I have some ideas why the more developed hackbutts lagged behind but need to do much more research to get it where I would feel it needs to be.

RPM

Julian Reynolds · Posted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject:

By 1507 we see rackfulls of Arquebuses such as these depicted below, which is why I believe the pole gun was an archaic weapon by 1500. The full-stocked gun had been around over fifty years by then. Guns were evolving very rapidly and their use becoming commonplace and their design ever more sophisticated. I seriously doubt there were any pole guns being made as late as 1500 in the more advanced nations, but I bet there were still plenty sitting in armouries (just as the US Navy was still issuing cutlasses up to the start of WWII).

Julian

Randall Moffett · Posted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 6:12 pm Post subject:

Yes I am familiar with it. The issue with that is that we are looking at the gent (or one of) who likely spent the most on firearms in Europe in terms of development and manufacture to that time. Just like today modern militaries use weapons that are half a century old technologically for the majority of work but clearly have and use much more modern items as well. Max had simpler guns on hand as well according to his inventories of that time, though I do not have enough of them on hand to say percents.

Of course many of the lesser organizations would also be often less well equipped. The mittelalterliches hausbuch and other artists involved with war of that period show such evidence as well in their artwork. I could not say if I can think of any accounts of new pipe guns made after 1500 off hand but it has been a few months since I have done research on the last few decades of the 15th century. So maybe.

My main point is that the simple pipe gun seems to be the most common gun of the 15th but because it is so simple or crude it often is looked over.

RPM

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 9:46 pm Post subject:

Lin Robinson · Posted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 3:34 am Post subject:

Julian Reynolds · Posted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 4:48 am Post subject:

It is a truism of any arms race, that as the more advanced nations re-equip with the latest advances in weapons technology, so their old inventories are dumped on the market at an affordable rate. These then become the equipment that is readily available to the masses, and therefore feature more and more commonly in 'everyday' use. Until the next advance in technology, and the cycle continues.

So Patrick has a choice (if he is looking for a gun for a historical representation from 1475) that depends more on whose army he is fighting for (and who pays for the equipment), as to whether he has pole gun or a full-stocked hackbut in his hands. But either would be contemporary with each other.

Julian