2 handed swords and scabbards - any ideas? -- myArmoury.com

Leo Todeschini · Industry Professional

Hi All,

2 handed swords are too long to wear and still draw the sword, so I guess the scabbard was more of a 'safe transport case' than anything else. I have a few questions around this subject and was wondering if anyone can help.

Were they worn or slung for transport or just carried in the hand.
Were scabbards fitted with carry straps for lashing down.
has anyone seen any artwork or period pieces that show how they were moved about and the role the scabbard played.

In a nutshell what is the story with 2 handed swords and scabbards?

Any help would be very welcome?

Regards

Tod

Christopher Domanski · Posted: Wed 01 Dec, 2010 1:01 pm Post subject:

Historical artwork suggests that they were carried on one's shoulder, like sledgehammers or shovels or rifles during a parade Wink

, with a single hand on the handle and the blade resting on the shoulder, at least by German landsknechts and doppelsoldners. Other evidence points out that during particularly long marches or for general transport they were just thrown onto a cart pulled by horses. No archeological or iconographical evidence known to me portrays or describes any kind of suspension or scabbards used with two handed swords, and for a good reason - they would be quite impossible to draw without grabbing the blade halfway through. However, it would be rather logical that they had some way of preserving their weapons against the elements in form of leather or canvas 'sacks', but I have no hard evidence to support that theory. Maybe they just oiled and cleaned their blades a lot.

Could I read your question as evidence that you're working ona a two-hander, Mr. Todeschini? Happy

Timo Nieminen · Posted: Wed 01 Dec, 2010 1:08 pm Post subject:

I've not seen any scabbards for the "standard" European two-hander; they're just carried bare-bladed on the shoulder, as one would carry a halberd if it had a very short handle and a very long blade. So, I can't say anything about that kind of two-hander.

I've seen it written, in a number of books (which may well get it from each other) that the Scottish two-handed claymore differed from the continental (and English, and Lowland?) two-handers in that they often had scabbards. I haven't seen one. Perhaps a claymore-phile can contribute more?

The Japanese two-hander (odachi, nodachi) had a scabbard. Where I can see scabbard mounts, it's a two-point tachi style suspension (as, e.g., on the Hanwei odachi). Sometimes the scabbarded sword is slung over the shoulder, with what looks like a rope sling. I don't recall seeing a picture showing how the rope is tied to the scabbard - the pics are usually from the front, and show the rope, bottom of scabbard, and handle and very top of scabbard. When the sword is being wielded, the scabbard isn't worn. So looks like it's unslung, drawn, and discarded. Supposedly the sword is drawn with the help of an assistant who holds the scabbard. This works, and is the only way that I've ever drawn an odachi. But I think you could start the draw, then shake the scabbard off.

I have a Chinese two-hander with basically a giant jian scabbard, two-point belt suspension. I don't know whether this would have been a historical solution. Easier to carry than to wear.

Russ Ellis · Industry Professional

This is the only reasonable period picture I've ever seen. I've made a few for customers, although perhpas not strictly speaking historically accurate the ones I did had a strap similar to a rifle sling for convenience in carrying.

Mark T · Posted: Thu 02 Dec, 2010 1:59 am Post subject:

Hi Tod (and Russ!),

Do you have JR Hale's Artists and warfare of the renaissance? It contains many images similar to the one Russ posted above, of soldiers marching, baggage trains, encampments, and so on, including images of two-handers.

I'm not sure if it will have exactly what you're after, but it's a great sourcebook nonetheless. I'll copy what I posted about it on the thread about Ben van Koert's new sallet:

Russ Ellis · Industry Professional

Hey Mark,

I have to admit I'd never heard of that book... but I have now and will look into it. Thank you sir!

Leo Todeschini · Industry Professional

Thanks for the response guys, thats prettty much as I assumed amd thanks for the book tip Mark.

Christopher Domanski wrote

Radovan Geist · Posted: Sun 01 Nov, 2015 10:52 pm Post subject:

Recently I have visited Tallinn and discovered one of its symbols: the copper statute of Old Thomas (originally a weather-vane from the City Hall) from 1530, depicting a landsknecht soldier / city guard from the first half of the 15th century. His sword looks like a two-hander with S-curved quillons (of course, it could be a one-hander, but the handle is too long and the pommel looks more typical for 2-hand variety). It hangs on a belt, in some kind of a scabbard of plain, simple design.
Just an interesting curiosity, that I thought could be related to this topic...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/VanaToomas1530.jpg

Theo Squires · Posted: Mon 02 Nov, 2015 1:36 am Post subject:

Neil Melville · Posted: Mon 02 Nov, 2015 9:41 am Post subject:

Hi Tod,
There were lots of 2-hander scabbards originally. The inventories of several German and Swiss arsenals refer to them in considerable numbers and even complain about those which are missing, and these references do apply to the late 16th century- early 17th "beidenhander", as they were called at the time. There are also illustrations of 2-handers being carried scabbarded in the Swiss chronicles, these are 15th-early 16th century, though. Belts are mentioned as well though it is not clear how they were worn or how the scabbards were attached to them. This is the major problem in trying to understand their use.
I know of 3 actual examples in Scotland, several in Schloss Erbach in Germany, one in the Old Arsenal in Solothurn and one in a private collection in the Netherlands. I assume that the paucity of surviving examples is due to their being lost or abandoned on the battlefield. Doesn't help you in re-creating one. Sorry.
Neil

Tyler Jordan · Posted: Mon 02 Nov, 2015 5:00 pm Post subject:

M. Curk · Posted: Tue 03 Nov, 2015 5:34 am Post subject:

Yes, what Tyler is saying seems to make sense to me - until needed you keep your sword protected in a scabbard. When it's time to fight you would take it off and leave it in the baggage train or on the floor. I guess you wouldn't carry it around when fighting, because you need two hands for using a zweihander and suspending it from somewhere off your body wouldn't be very practical. Leaving scabbard somewhere and not having it near you could make a chance for losing it quite significant.

I've also read somewhere that knights who fought on horseback had their two-handed swords in scabbards that were suspended from their saddles. Doing so might give you some extra distance to be able to draw it, but it doesn't apply to the landesknecht example..

MC

Neil Melville · Posted: Tue 03 Nov, 2015 7:41 am Post subject:

You are quite right, Tyler and MC, disposing of the scabbards before going into battle, like leaving them with the baggage, is obviously sensible and the practical thing to do. The problem persists, though, as out of the examples I quoted 2 of the scabbards in Scotland (both with their Scots 2-handed swords) and 3 in Schloss Erbach have belt hooks.
Perhaps the whole contraption, scabbard and belt/baldric, was removed before action. I just don't know. All the landsknecht engravings and woodcuts show the 2-hander being carried over the shoulder, usually with blades bare.
Neil

Jasper B. · Posted: Tue 03 Nov, 2015 10:01 am Post subject:

Not a serious addition to the discussion, but a nice pic for the topic anyhow.

J.B.

Patrick Kelly · Posted: Tue 03 Nov, 2015 3:06 pm Post subject:

Radovan Geist · Posted: Mon 09 Nov, 2015 10:44 pm Post subject:

Theo, you´re probably right. It might be a long-sword, it´s hard to tell from the dimensions.
Recently I´ve remembered reading something on sheaths for two-handers in Alfieri´s "Lo Spadone" (translated by Ken Mondschein - a really useful book). I´ve checked it again, and it´s there.

In Chapter 5 on How One Ought to Hold the Spadone While Walking, Alfieri recommends holding the sword with left hand, leaning against the left arm / shoulder, with point up. In the last sentence of the chapter he concludes: "The gentleman standing in this position can go on his way, and assault one-to-one or against many, for he can speedily and without any time grip it with his right hand, unsheathe the sword, and put it to whatever use the occasion requires."

Unfortunately the accompanying illustration shows a spadone, which is already unsheathed. However, from the description one would assume that the sword was not worn on belt, when walking, so the sheath would probably be a simple one, without any hooks etc.

Of course, 1) this is just a speculation and I need to search for more info, including pictures, if possible; 2) Alfieri writes about use of a two-handed sword in a civilian context, so the relation to military use (especially in earlier periods) does not need to be straight-forward.

Shahril Dzulkifli

Whoa! This one's wicked! A biker with a sword slung across his back! Eek!

Lafayette C Curtis · Posted: Thu 21 Jan, 2016 2:03 am Post subject:

I think I got this image from an earlier thread/topic here, but I don't remember which. All I'm sure about is that it seems to have come from one of the Swiss Chronicles and it shows big swords being carried in their sheaths (unless the blade is made of some mysterious red metal).

Alan E · Posted: Thu 21 Jan, 2016 3:10 am Post subject:

Dan Howard · Posted: Thu 21 Jan, 2016 5:37 am Post subject:

A few people have tried making back-scabbards for swords. The only method that seems even remotely practical is a simple two-ring setup with the ring at the top on a swivel so the blade can be drawn over the shoulder. As said above, historically, longer swords were either carried on the shoulder or tossed on a wagon with the other baggage.