[Gert-Jan Beukers]

Dear members of myArmoury.com,

On the magical place called 'the internet' I found a nice looking Brigandine with sleeves. My question is ; Are there sources of brigandines with sleeves? I typed 'Brigandine sleeves' at Google and found descriptions (wikipedia : The form of the brigandine is essentially the same as the civilian doublet, though it is commonly sleeveless. However, depictions of brigandine armour with sleeves are known.'') but no images. Does anybody has images of brigandines with sleeves ?

Thank you in advance,


Gert-Jan

[Allan Senefelder]

Theres pics of one or two in either Stones Guide or The Armorer and His Craft, I can't remember which.

[Danny Grigg]

[Timo Nieminen]

Those pictures remind me of Chinese and Korean brigandines, which very often have sleeves (some are sleeveless). Stone has some pics of these Chinese armours.

[Mark T]

Here's what David Edge and John Miles Paddock offer in Arms and armour of the medieval knight, in the 15th C chapter (pp. 120-121):

[Mark T]

For those who are interested, here's the link to Steel Mastery's 'European brigandine with shoulder protection': http://www.steel-mastery.com/index.php?&m...uct_id=534

The best example is the red one - just click on the thumbnails on the left hand side. These show how the 'shoulder flaps' are formed into sleeves with leather straps.

[David Teague]

Hello All,

If anybody is thinking of ordering from the company being discussed in this thread, please read the following thread before placing an order.

FYI.

Yours,

David

[Mark T]

David, I'd been monitoring that thread too. I did note, however, that the main poster was quoted a delivery date of February, and the first week of March seemed a little early to be raising a concern. I've heard Steel Mastery had fulfillment problems a couple of years back but that these were fixed; let's hope they're able to keep things on track, as they're one of a very few suppliers of brigs.

Back on topic: I mainly posted the link above because I think the different images are closer to what Edge & Paddock referred to as spaulders attached with points. However, I don't really see what the benefits of points on brigandine spaulders would be, compared with ones that are sewn on as in those pics. I'm not a personal fan of the 'whole' sleeve in the photo in the OP, and see some movement benefits to the shoulder being sewn on at the top, but joined around the arm with a strap. The only benefit of points I can see of the 'spaulders + points' option is the flexibility of choosing whether or not to wear the spaulders ... but if you've decided that brig shoulders are the way to go, then having them sewn on would presumably be more secure, and spread the weight more evenly.

Just my buck-o-five ...

[Mark T]

I've just found this thread, which apart from comparing Steel Mastery's brigandines to other suppliers', also contains a reference to a period image of a brigandine with sleeves: http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/forums/viewtop...mp;t=20355

The brigandine is described as being 'blue with the opening at the back', and is from a text written by Guillaume Caoursin, Vice Chancellor of the Order of St. Joh in 1482, printed in 1496, with illustrations done in 1483 by the master of the Cardinel of Bourbon ... does anyone have a copy of that image, or know how to track it down?

A quick Google search found this digitisation of Historia von Rhodis, by Gillaume Caoursin and Johannes Adelphus, (1513) at the Munich Digitisation Centre: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00001935/images/

However, while it contains lots of images of garments with sleeves, I can't see any that seem to clearly be brigandines, and the illustrations are just line drawings (ie, not in colour). Wikimedia Commons offers this colour image, which seems promising: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SiegeOfRhodes1480.jpg

Does anyone know where to locate the rest of this book's images online?

[Mark T]

Bingo! The poster at LivingHistory.co.uk let me know that the image in question is on the front cover of The knights of Rhodes: The palace and the city, by Elias Kollias (Ekdotike Atenon SA, 2005), and confirmed that this was part of the series by the Cardinel of Bourbon's master illuminator in 1483.

The blue brigandine with sleeves can clearly be seen in the lower left, and is contrasted with other brigandines without sleeves.

[Mark T]

Here's another image which appears to me to be a brigandine with some kind of sleeves - although the sleeves themselves do not appear to have plates behind.

This image is of English archers at Ribodane, from the Chronique d'Angleterre, V. III by Jean de Wavrin, c. 1480 (Royal 14 E IV f.252, sourced from the British Library at http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?image=061143).

The fourth archer from the left wears what I'm assuming is meant to be a brigandine, given the rivets arranged in threes. The blue 'puffy' sleeves appear to be attached, rather than part of a garment underneath - the other images of outer garments with attached sleeves all clearly have just a faint grey line suggesting a fold of the cloth or stitching at the shoulder (as does this one), while other sleeveless brigs usually have a thicker black line, almost representative of shadow, clearly showing a delineation of brigandine from the garment underneath.

This distinction is not easy to see on the image available online, but John Waterer's Leather and the warrior (Northhampton, Museum of Leathercraft, 1981, p. 37) reprints this image in full colour and at a large size, where the difference is clearly visible.

So, while the sleeves do not appear to be of brigandine construction (ie, they do not have the trefoil rivet pattern), they do appear to still be attached to the brigandine.

[Mark T]

I know it's hard to see in the image below, but in a high-res print I have of this, the archer in the bottom right hand corner with the gold-coloured sallet is wearing what appears to be a blue brigandine with 'brigandined' sleeves.

The fallen swordsman in the centre foreground also appears to have a red brigandine with sleeves under his blue coat.

From Jean Froissart's Chronicles, image of the battle of Crecy (BNF, FR 2643, fol. 165v):

[Mark T]

A couple of things from other posts on myArmoury that are probably worth consolidating here ... from the 'Would you choose brigandine or plate?' thread (http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...p;start=22):

[Gert-Jan Beukers]

Thank you guys for all te replies! They were really helpful!


I ordered it from steel mastery, but a slightly different one (with another shoulder construction)


Greetings,

Gert-Jan

[Nikodem Czechowski]

And what do you think about these:
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/bambe.../original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/bambe.../original/

[Mark T]

This topic is like an itch I just keep having to scratch ...

Here's The Martyrdom Of St Ursula by Hans Memling cira 1489 - the man in the right foreground appears to be wearing a red brigandine with sleeves.

If you want to see it at a larger size, it's online here, which will allow you to zoom in to see details: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...ng_074.jpg

(Thanks to David Teague for reminding me of this image!)

[Mark T]

Here's another possible candidate - this time from Memling's Passion of Christ, 1470-71: http://www.hansmemling.org/Scenes-from-the-Pa...large.html

While the detail is hard to make out at this resolution, the colouring looks like it could suggest a red brigandine with brightly-coloured rivets. If so, then it looks like it has spaulders.

[Iagoba Ferreira]

I'm in a bit of hurry, but the tapestries of Pastrana may be of interest.

[Mark T]

Hi Iagoba,

It certainly is! Thanks for the lead.

It looks like the brig in the photo below shows the points that were used to attach the spaulders.

[Mark T]

This portion of the Pastrana tapestries shows three brigandines with spaulders, all with detail showing the points: