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Viktor Chudinov




Location: Varna, Bulgaria
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Nov, 2010 11:32 am    Post subject: Question on Vegetius' "De re militari"         Reply with quote

I've seen quite a lot of times mentioned on various forums that up to mid-16th century Flavius Vegetius' "De re Militari" was the most common military manual,and think that even the Wikipedia article says it was very popular among commanders.
Ive been wondering whether this is true -what evidence there is, and also would the things written in there would be literally followed by medieval commanders and generals.
Or was it viewed more as an inspiration, along with some useful advices,while medieval tactics and strategies are a lot different than what the book says.
Also are there any other manuscripts on the topic of commanding armies and waging wars between say 10th and 15th century (except the byzantine ones from around 10th C.). I'd be happy if anyone could offer some more literature on the topic

Thank you all for the answers.
Also sorry if this duplicates a thread, but my search skills are not that good.

I wonder...do deaf schizophrenics hear voices...
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A. Elema





Joined: 09 Nov 2010

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Tue 09 Nov, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vegetius was copied quite a lot and translated into several vernacular languages in the Middle Ages. Medieval people didn't accept all of it uncritically, however. The parts about swimming were almost certainly not followed. Nicholas Orme discusses the text in his book, From Childhood to Chivalry, p. 185 ff.

The Rule of the Templars also has quite a lot of good information about battle tactics. See this article on the subject.
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2010 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also see Bernard Bachrach, “The Practical Use of Vegetius' De Re Militari During the Early Middle Ages,” The Historian Vol. 47 Issue 2 (February 1985). If your library doesn't have it (and getting a copy in Bulgaria may not be easy), a Google search may turn up a free version.
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2010 3:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Flavius Vegetius was not a commander.
The value of his books in the collection of ancient texts and spread news of the past, with a diligent research.
Many recommendations for the prince, as well as some tips for the economical character, general informations.
Under the military and tactical aspect provide little practical information.
Probably sometimes writes things that do not know. The army knew that he had been overtaken by time.
"The archers had to train with wooden arches ... the opposite is true, the archers had to train with heavy arches.
The Roman army is trained with heavy shields, heavy javelins, heavy swords
I'm surprised its spread, "Strategikon" and "Tactica" give good practical tools for soldiers and commanders, but have not had the same luck.

Ciao
Maurizio
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2010 4:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have a modern English translation version of the French version of De Rei Militari that Cristine de Pisan translated in 14th AD era. There is a lot of tactical and logistical advise in it. Everything from training to how to pack and travel, and why was addressed in it. The basic concepts and reasons (morale, logisitics, risks) would not really be that obsolete in terms of present day war fare. One can see why it would be referenced by officers during the period.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
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PostPosted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 11:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
Flavius Vegetius was not a commander.
The value of his books in the collection of ancient texts and spread news of the past, with a diligent research.
Many recommendations for the prince, as well as some tips for the economical character, general informations.
Under the military and tactical aspect provide little practical information.
Probably sometimes writes things that do not know. The army knew that he had been overtaken by time.
"The archers had to train with wooden arches ... the opposite is true, the archers had to train with heavy arches.
The Roman army is trained with heavy shields, heavy javelins, heavy swords
I'm surprised its spread, "Strategikon" and "Tactica" give good practical tools for soldiers and commanders, but have not had the same luck.

De re militari was available in Latin, so most educated people in Latin Christendom could read it. From about 900 to 1450, very few people in the Latin world could read Greek, so they couldn't use those other works. And I suspect that the Greek empire did its best to keep modern military manuals out of the hands of barbarians Happy
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Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
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PostPosted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 2:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
I have a modern English translation version of the French version of De Rei Militari that Cristine de Pisan translated in 14th AD era. There is a lot of tactical and logistical advise in it. Everything from training to how to pack and travel, and why was addressed in it. The basic concepts and reasons (morale, logisitics, risks) would not really be that obsolete in terms of present day war fare. One can see why it would be referenced by officers during the period.


<<Unlike "Mulomedicina", a veterinary manual full of practical advice, " De re militari " speak of exhortation and noble examples of past glories at the side of prescriptions and instructions tactics sometimes useless and often inconsistent, because the Roman army is shown in a mixer text of historical data, and contemporary elements of what the author wanted it to be true for the army of his time.>>
Luttwak Edwardt military strategy consultant. ( "Mulomedicina" is also a book of Vegetius)

Personally I think it is a set of tricks rather than a manual of tactics and strategy plan. There is talk of military episodes of exemplary dedication, tenacious, courageous, innovative, intelligent, smart, able to deceive the enemy, maybe even today a commander could benefit from some of these tricks, but we are far from tactics and strategy.

Facing a battle on a river or sea, following his advice would be unwise. I can cite many examples.

I remember the battle of Adrianople was already.
The use of the bow was almost ignored, he must know the importance of composite bow for the army of his time.
In the treaties of which I speak the use of the composite bow assumes great importance, detailed descriptions of a practical nature.
Narsete, the Battle of Tagina, won by the archers.
He opposed the cavalry with infantry. Against the enemy cavalry, archers from Narsete used his powerful bows, to weaken and create havoc in the cavalry charge. With the massive help of the archers, the infantry of his barbaric army did what the Roman infantry had failed to do on the field of Adrianople, resisting the impact of the knights Goths.
It reminds us of the battle of Cregy of 1346 only made 800 years ago. (before)

In other words, some tips individually can be very useful, it lacks a guiding plan.

P.S. I realize the errors of translation always too late, fortunately there is the "Edit" button Razz Happy

Ciao
Maurizio


Last edited by Maurizio D'Angelo on Fri 12 Nov, 2010 3:47 pm; edited 7 times in total
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 3:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
Flavius Vegetius was not a commander.
The value of his books in the collection of ancient texts and spread news of the past, with a diligent research.
Many recommendations for the prince, as well as some tips for the economical character, general informations.
Under the military and tactical aspect provide little practical information.
Probably sometimes writes things that do not know. The army knew that he had been overtaken by time.
"The archers had to train with wooden arches ... the opposite is true, the archers had to train with heavy arches.
The Roman army is trained with heavy shields, heavy javelins, heavy swords
I'm surprised its spread, "Strategikon" and "Tactica" give good practical tools for soldiers and commanders, but have not had the same luck.

De re militari was available in Latin, so most educated people in Latin Christendom could read it. From about 900 to 1450, very few people in the Latin world could read Greek, so they couldn't use those other works. And I suspect that the Greek empire did its best to keep modern military manuals out of the hands of barbarians Happy


Yes,
It is a result of the failure distribution.
I remember that all orders, commands, and the provisions were to be in Latin.
The masters were obliged to Latin. This, perhaps, for the variety of peoples who have fought for them.

Ciao
Maurizio
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Mon 15 Nov, 2010 12:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Georges Duby relates a story of a 12th century French noble (circa 1160) who, upon learning from De Re Militari, applied some of Vegetius' tactics to a siege he was engaged in and promptly caused the defending castle to capitulate. Duby acknowledges that the story was probably apocryphal; more importantly for your purposes is that we have a mid 12th century written reference that suggests Vegetius was known to military men, even if they could not necessarily read his works themselves.
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Douglas S





Joined: 18 Feb 2004

Posts: 177

PostPosted: Tue 16 Nov, 2010 11:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, that clears up a lot for me. Happy
Thus, we may conclude that "Poem of the Pell" was directly inspired by Vegetius, and probably did not arise out of a folk tradition.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov, 2010 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Question on Vegetius' "De re militari"         Reply with quote

Viktor Chudinov wrote:
Or was it viewed more as an inspiration, along with some useful advices,while medieval tactics and strategies are a lot different than what the book says.


Yes, he was probably seen largely as an inspiration. Even at quite an early date (the Carolingian period, if not earlier) medieval commentators were already abridging his work (one Frankish version is said to contain passages relevant to a cavalry-based force) and/or remarking on bits and pieces that no longer applied to the conditions of their day.


Quote:
Also are there any other manuscripts on the topic of commanding armies and waging wars between say 10th and 15th century (except the byzantine ones from around 10th C.). I'd be happy if anyone could offer some more literature on the topic.


There are a number of Kriegsbucher(?) from the late 15th century that might be of some interest, but unfortunately most of them don't seem to have ever been translated out of their original German. I also vaguely remember the existence of Burgundian and Italian artillery manuals, and some of the Burgundian stuff might have been translated already.
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Viktor Chudinov




Location: Varna, Bulgaria
Joined: 25 Dec 2008

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PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov, 2010 8:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thak you all very much. That's quite a lot interesting information.
I wonder...do deaf schizophrenics hear voices...
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