[Quinn W.]

Preface:
As a medieval history major, it has been wonderful combining academia with my passion for reenactment, but never has this been more true than this quarter, where I've had the opportunity to take a class on Medieval Warfare. For our final essay I have chosen to write about combat training in the 14th century. You guys have helped me out in many ways in the past on various things I have been curious about, so let's just say I'm upping the ante and resting my grade on this one! (Not really; I can manage on my own. But help is always appreciated!)

To the point:
My paper topic is on knightly training. How one trained to become a knight (in the warrior sense only. I'm not focusing on etiquette or learning an instrument unless these somehow play directly into combat) and how he kept his fighting skills sharp off the battlefield.
I think I have most of the basic ideas. I'm planning on covering the use of the tournament as a training tool (by the 14th century it was more of a spectator sport and less of a hands-on battle simulator than in the 12th century, but still certainly applicable), the individual teaching of a knight to a squire, which would, of course, vary greatly from person to person, although I will address common techniques like use of the pell, quintaine, throwing stones, etc., and Schools of arms and surviving manuals (more common in later centuries, but Fiore del Liberi, Liechtenauer and the I.33 are all 14th century, if I'm not mistaken). I've also heard about the use of weighted weapons/armor, although I haven't personally found a source for this yet.
Anyhow, I was wondering if anyone had any contributions to make on the subject. Aspects I missed, or any information on the above as it relates to knights and combat training in the 1300s. Christian Tobler has already generously offered to help me out as I cover Liechtenauer's system, so a shout-out of thanks there!
Additionally, while I'm willing to take your word for the things you say, I don't think my professor would look too kindly on my putting a forum in my bibliography, so sources are appreciated. If you don't remember where you got that information but have something to add, that's fine too. I can use your point as a stepping stone for conduction my own research.
Thank you everyone, you're the best!

-Quinn

[Sean Manning]

If you haven't already, and have time,I would look up 14th century translations/adaptations of Vegetius, and the various works of Steven Muhlberger on formal deeds of arms in the 14th century.

Vegetius claims the Romans (at some unspecified date, according to some unnamed source he had read) used extra heavy weapons and shields when training. Educated medieval soldiers would have known this, but I don't know if any imitated him.

[Kel Rekuta]

Here are a couple readings that might whet your appetite. (also includes recommendations to train with extra heavy weapons)

http://www.mediumaevum.com/75years/specregal.html

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/sources/kingsmirror.htm

[Elling Polden]

I suspect that the Kingsmirror's reference to "wear your armour and use heavy weapons" comment could be more a result of a de facto tendency to do sword and buckler in linen shirts than a military requirement. Kind of like the encouragement to practice rather than drink and hang out with Loose Wenches at the docks "with the rest of the guys".

At the time, the Norwegian kings where trying to import the continental chivalric culture to Norway. Though this was mainly to fit in with the rest of christianity, and reinforce the principles of loyalty to the King, it also included a wish to have high ranking kingsmen train for mounted combat. Practically, this was seldom done, as ships and shieldwalls remained the basis of Norwegian warfare into the 14th c.

(on a amusing side note we practice pretty much at the exact spot where the kingsmen described in the kingsmirror would have done their training. Except in winter, when we train in the bedchamber of the king it was writen to educate.)

[Allen Foster]

You might find this thread from a now dead forum interesting to your study.

http://pendant.forumotion.net/off-topic-f8/pa...g-t459.htm

[Lafayette C Curtis]

This one probably has some relevance:

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/pdfs/gillmor2.pdf

[Kel Rekuta]

[David Clark]

Well, I can't quite remember which century it is from, but a contemporary author said something along the lines of, "a young man/knight must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack in order to be fully prepared for battle."
I know I paraphrased that; but such a statement deffinitely implies that their (French or English?) combat training was very intense. Sorry for such a vague post, but I don't have the book in front of me right now. The quote came from English Weapons and Warfare, 449-1660 by Norman and Pottinger.

Edit: FOUND IT!
"No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack under the fist of his adversary, and when he is thrown to the ground he must fight with all his might and not loose courage... Anyone who can do that, can engage in battle confidently. "

Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201

[Quinn W.]

Thanks a ton, everybody!
These are all fascinating ideas and links. Even the parts that may not apply directly to my paper are all things I know I'll have to read on my own time later.
Looks like I"ll need to look some more into Vegetius in particular. I didn't realize how applicable his work still was in the 14th century. My own research has confirmed this, and I found a great depiction from a 14th century French copy of the De Re Militari depicting practice with the pell in full armor.

[Douglas S]

"The Poem of the Pell" is often assumed to be a medieval adaptation of Vegetius' De Rei Militari. Was Vegatius translated and read in those days, or were they both describing a training methodology that existed before either works existed? (After all, Vegetius' Romans copied more then they invented.)

[A. Elema]

Hi Quinn, that's a great topic and one that needs to be studied more in academia. I'll warn you, however, that it's going to be very challenging to write an undergraduate paper about it because there aren't yet many scholarly articles or books that mention the subject and much of the good stuff isn't in English.

To help you out, go over to the Schola Gladiatoria forum where we've been collecting medieval English references to sword training in this thread (http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15700). The quotes come with references to books you can cite, but do credit the website as well if someone online translated the material into English.

Now here's what you need to do in order to take the paper into 'A' territory: ask yourself whether and why we can trust any of these sources to be accurate reflections of medieval sword training as it was actually practiced. Who wrote these texts and who was their audience? Can we tell anything about the authors' motives? What genre did the texts belong to (e.g. legal records, romances, scholarly philosophical tracts, etc.), and how did that influence the way in which the subject was portrayed?

[E Stafford]

W00T! I'm also an undergraduate looking to do a paper in WMA, so this is very timely. My thesis, however, will be on rapier fencing, as opposed to knights. I'm taking the prerequisite next term. Hopefully I can hammer something out and contribute to the WMA community. The problem I'm going to run into is the papers perception as "macho", so I'm going to have to figure out a way around that. In the meantime, favoriting this thread.

[Jared Smith]

In the 12th and 13th century, group melee tournament was described by some as "essential" preparation for knightly combat. As you get into the 1300's, there was an interruption or decrease in that particular type of earlier contest in Northern France. Jousts and tournament more in the style of "one on one" were still popular though. (Quite a few nobles died in them. At least one family lost 3 successive generations all in tournament mishaps.) I would not overlook tournament as a way that training was applied and tested.

[Christian G. Cameron]

Don't skimp on De Charny. His questions are informative as to expected levels of training and so on. At the same time, I've become interested in the minutae of training in period--what did they wear? What form did bated weapons take EXACTLY? Did they in fact practice with sharps? (look carefully at the pages of the Getty Fiore mss..) Where EXACTLY did they train? Outdoors? Indoors?

I, too was a Medievalist in University, and I'm still interested in the answers to these questions... a sa specific example of what interests me (and I'm hogging yr thread, so pardon) if a young knight of 180 was expected (as Gaston Phoebus suggests) to get practice of war by, say, killing a boar with his longsword--at what point in his training is he eligible to try? And so on. The devil, as one of our American politicians once said, is in the details.

[Mark T]

Quinn,

If you haven't already, check out The martial arts of renaissance Europe, Sydney Anglo (Yale University Press, 2000); while focussing on late medieval/renaissnace, it might have some relevant sections.

http://www.bookdepository.com/book/9780300083...nce-Europe

[Quinn W.]

Thank you very much, everyone. I have obtained a copy of a book on Charny and tournaments in 14th c France, which has proved invaluable. I still need to do more direct research into Vegetius, but I have assembled Liechtenauer, Fiore dei Liberi and the I.33. I will look into "The martial arts of renaissance Europe" as well. The Schola Forum has also yielded many applicable results.
Your help has been invaluable to me. Anything else anyone has is appreciated, and I will in turn do my part by making my paper available online after it has been turned in.
I realize this is a difficult area of study for an undergraduate, but this is my fifth medieval class from the same professor and each time my papers have become more complex as I strive to challenge myself and push toward my own areas of interest within the Middle Ages.
For reference, my other papers have been on The English knight during the early phases of the Hundred Years War, French and English chivalry in the 13th c as it related to warfare, and on the non-combat side, early medieval religious conversion techniques, and the Italian doctor in the second half of the 14th c. While I'm at it, I can put those online as well. Each one has received a respectable grade and what I feel is a fair amount of research for an undergrad (69 footnotes in 14 pages in the case of my Italian Doctor paper).

[Mackenzie Cosens]

It won't help you with this semester's paper, but is sounds like you have caught the sword bug and Bellingham is so close to Vancouver, I hope you are planning to coming to www.vancouverswordplay.com, February 11–13, 2011. The instructor list is impressive, and should be well worth attending.


Mackenzie

[Quinn W.]

I looked into that link to the Schola Forum and foun many 14th c references to Fencing Schools in England being shut down and their teachers/members fined or imprisoned. Does anyone know the reasoning for this? Was it because it promoted unrest or the formation of gangs? Also, if these schools were looked down upon, then were teachers like Liechtenauer looked down upon as rabble-rousers also?
Would knights or aspiring knights have attended these city-schools? Liechtenhauer catered to a knightly audience, but it seems that this might be one difference between his school and the ones that were shut down. Or was the difference simply that Germany had a different opinion of this sort of thing than England did?
The link, posted above by A. Elema, copied again here:
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewtopi...mp;t=15700

Mackenzie, I didn't know about the Vancouver event, but it is conveniently close and looks fascinating. Perhaps it's too late to help with this paper, but my interest in the subject doesn't end the moment I finish taking my final exams. And while it may be at the limits of this college student's budget, I will certainly see what I can do.

[Quinn W.]

To provide some sort of conclusion to this thread, I would like to post the final (and graded) draft of my paper you have helped me so much with. Thanks again to Christian Tobler, who let me quote him in the work.
Since this is directed toward a different audience than the myArmoury community I felt the need to explain a few basic things that most of you are likely already familiar with.
While the grade has already been received and the class is over, (I received an A both overall and in the paper!) I still welcome any suggestions. As I have said before, this topic interest me well beyond the purely academic level.
Enjoy!

UPDATE: Unfortunately, this forum does not support the attachment of .doc files within a post! Does anybody know a good way for me to make my work available?

[Tom Kinder]

host it somewhere else on the web and link to it?

I would really like to read your paper, thank you for sharing (or trying to)

I actually learned a lot just reading this thread and the thing linked to in it.