[Jared Lambert]

I have been trying to find out how early solid breastplates came into fashion in central Europe (France, Germany, etc.). I can find evidence late 14th century but my question is "is there any evidence that suggests earlier use in Europe of solid breastplates?

[Randall Moffett]

They start showing up in inventories in the 1340s. Edward III for example has one for jousting in 1342. By the 1350s they are fairly common, so much so that the Black Prince gives some extras away in 1358. They show up in art and text from this point on fairly often.

RPM

[Craig Peters]

There is a report around the close of the 12th century of Richard the Lionheart wearing a solid piece of metal to protect his chest along with his mail- I can't remember who wrote about it. This has lead more than one historian to state that the breastplate, or even plate armour (see Cantor's The Civilization of the Middle Ages), was a 12th century invention. It is probably more accurate to say that this was a single early example of something like a breastplate being worn; just the same, it is an interesting historical tidbit. But, as Jared has noted, the breastplate is properly a 14th century development.

[Elling Polden]

Mid-13th c sources describe something called a "Chest protector of iron" or "plate" that should protect the fully armed knight from the nipples to the belt, and was worn under the hauberk. This is probably a front-only predecessor to the Coat of Plates, and the later breastplates.

If Richard wore a plate defence for his torso, it would probably be one of these.

[Matt Easton]

Yep, I'd agree with everything above - Isolated examples until about 1340ish when they started to appear allongside 'pairs of plates' (coats of plates) in inventories/wills, and they were clearly widespread by the 1360's, as shown by the new wasp-shaped breasts on knightly brasses and effigies from then onwards (compared a brass of 1340 with one of 1370).

So to answer your question, they became 'fashionable' (ie. common) in the middle of the 14thC.

Matt

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Matt Easton]

Hi Jean,
Yes it can be difficult to guess what is under jupons sometimes. However sometimes it is easy - some effigies have opening at the side of the jupon where you can see the overlapping plates of the 'coat of plates'. Also, with effigies you have a 3-dimensional model and it is very clear that whilst in the 1340's they have quite flat chests, by the 1370's they have very domed chests. Either they were mostly wearing solid breastplates by that point, or they have some very serious medical condition affecting their chests.
Finally, in the 1390/1400's brasses and effigies start to appear with no jupon covering and solid breastplates exposed (in the 1380's the breastplates occasionally appear worn on top of the jupon), and suprise surpise, they have the same outline and shape as the effigies from the 1360's-1380's which had jupons. So clearly solid breastplates had been quite common since the 1360's at least.

Of course all of this is also supported by the textual evidence.

There is no real debate to be had here - all armour experts agree on this, as far as I am aware.

Regards,
Matt

[Jean Thibodeau]

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Years ago I was looking at a book on Italian frescoes (Siennese?), and came across one dated to 1340 that showed two fellows wearing exposed breastplates. Ring a bell with anyone? Hopefully it was not the result of someone 'touching it up' at a later date.

[Jared Lambert]

thanks for all the replies i thought they were a late 14th century thing like 1390s but it good to now they were earlier and ill have to look into the earlier investigations you guys mentioned as well.

[David Butchee]

[Elling Polden]

[Dan Howard]

[Gabriele A. Pini]

OT: This discussion is giving solidity to my theory that we don't know very much of history, and the best quality for a studious of every type (archeology, reenactor, armchair...) are the same that Jesus recommends for every Christian: prudence and simplicity...
Only Sunday a guy who professed himself a "real Knight Templar" (ugh!) dismissed my claims of the possibility of the existence of a early breastplate under the mail as fantasies. The same person said that he has a trebuchet that with 8 meters of arm and 500 kgs of counterweight can hurl 50 kgs of stone to 827 meters...

Topic: I was always very confounded by two facts: the sudden apparition of mail in every corner in Europe and that the first example of it visible were the joints, the pieces more complicated and less useful to make, but also more complicated and less useful to cover with the mail. So what if to the XIV century the plate wasn't fashionable? Everyone (who could) would wear it but covered (they were not so stupid, or simply the stupids would die first). Then Edward III start wear it in public (more confortable? more protective?) and suddenly it became a fashionable piece, and everyone started to wear it over the mail.

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Jason Hollman]

[Elling Polden]

[Gabriele A. Pini]

[Jason Hollman]

I see your point!

Fairly sure the 'Coat of Plates' became the norm first, then additional plate defences to limbs which would follow your thoughts.

[Jean Thibodeau]