Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Accuracy of visored barbute at Armour and Castings? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Northern VA,USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,194

PostPosted: Fri 23 Jul, 2010 12:02 am    Post subject: Accuracy of visored barbute at Armour and Castings?         Reply with quote

Is anyone aware of historical sources showing the type of visored barbute being sold by Armour and Castings? Or better yet, does anyone have pics of the original that is supposed to be at Musee de l'Armee in Paris? I'd just like to know how accurate this reproduction is.


http://armourandcastings.com/index.php?_a=vie...ductId=254

HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand


"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Felix R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Reading list: 25 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Fri 23 Jul, 2010 12:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In several threads all over the topic concerned forums it is said to be a helmet without a visor and the visor was added much later and doesn´t belong to that particular helmet.
I don´t know wether there are pictures in art that show this style though. Then you would end up with an interpretive recreation.
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Fri 23 Jul, 2010 12:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The visor is likely not associated to the helm. I believe they are not displayed together any longer.

If I'm right, then the Armour and Castings piece is replicating something that was erroneously assembled in the first place.



 Attachment: 60.39 KB
helms.jpg
Comparing the Musee de l'Armee helm to the one by Armour and Castings

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Northern VA,USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,194

PostPosted: Fri 23 Jul, 2010 7:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys!
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand


"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Michal Plezia
Industry Professional



Location: Poland
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 585

PostPosted: Fri 23 Jul, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the helmet itself is not a barbute, but the late bascinet (it was also decribed as a italian 1430 or 1420 bascinet in a book- can't remember a title). I believe that the shape of the top is more important for the classification than the shape of the face opening.

Is it not the same piece? :

www.elchon.com

Polish Guild of Knifemakers

The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
N Cioran




Location: Toronto
Joined: 21 Nov 2010

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu 27 Jan, 2011 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's worth saying that helmet looks very much like the one from the late 14th century drawing of Francesco Carrara Novello. I'll try to dig up a soft copy...
View user's profile Send private message
Greg Mele
Industry Professional



Location: Chicago, IL USA
Joined: 20 Mar 2006

Posts: 356

PostPosted: Thu 27 Jan, 2011 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I always think of this as the "Visored Gondorean Helmet". Wink

(And actually, I mean that in a good way - I've always loved this piece.)

Due to its oddity, and I *thought* wear pattern between visor and skull, there is a lot of doubt that the pieces go together. There is also the idea that barbutes aren't visored. *However*, complicating issues, the hinge seemed to fit the original helmet, and although it has a high point, the overall form is not too different than a number of helms displayed in early 15th c romances and usually thought to be jousting helms (whether the figures are jousting or not).

Cole,

I seem to recall something similar in an image of Francesco da Carrara, too, although I thought it was a most contemporary rendering? I did a quick Google but came up with nothing.

Bill,

Considering how much flux and variation goes on in early 15th c armour, not to mention the many, many permutations of the great bascinet from the era, and the blurred lines between bascinet and barbuta in some cases, I think this is a viable piece if you really like it.

Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com

www.freelanceacademypress.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
N Cioran




Location: Toronto
Joined: 21 Nov 2010

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu 27 Jan, 2011 5:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like the Gondor reference Happy

Now, on to the pic... here we go!

From Vergerius' De Principibus Carrariensibus, circa 1400, Museo Civico Padua...

Enjoy!
Cole



 Attachment: 179.37 KB
Francesco Cararra Novello [ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Simon G.




Location: Lyons, France
Joined: 02 Jun 2008

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Thu 27 Jan, 2011 7:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
From Vergerius' De Principibus Carrariensibus, circa 1400, Museo Civico Padua...


Mmm, this one looks like a "standard" jousting great helm, all in one piece, without any hinged visor.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Accuracy of visored barbute at Armour and Castings?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum