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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Sun 18 Jul, 2010 3:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's an interesting picture Elling. What's it's source?
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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Sun 18 Jul, 2010 3:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sander,

It's shown in an myArmoury feature about maille, but alos without proper reference. Note how the surcottes are made in mi-partie colors. As far as I know this wasn't fashionable until late 13th century, well at least not along the nobles.

http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_mail16.jpg

http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Sun 18 Jul, 2010 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

do you have a source for that Thomas? the bit about the surcoat party colors?
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Thomas R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Sun 18 Jul, 2010 11:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Chuck,

I cross checked some german sites and it seems to be my fault on this, as they tell it might have been in use since 12th century. Dunno why I thought it came up later on, but I did. So, apologies. Sad Maybe I stared a bit too much in a awe at the Morgan Bible lately. Seems to be, that Empress Theophanu brought this fashion from Byzantinium in the 11th century to western europe. So the german wiki states it and refers to a german book:

Veronika Mertens: Mi-Parti als Zeichen. Zur Bedeutung von geteiltem Kleid und geteilter Gestalt in der Ständetracht, in literarischen und bildnerischen Quellen sowie im Fastnachtsbrauch vom Mittelalter bis zur Gegenwart. (Kulturgeschichtliche Forschungen, hg.v. Dietz-Rüdiger Moser, Bd. 1), Remscheid 1983 ISBN 3-922055-86-9

(translates as: Mi-Parti as a sign. About the meaning of splitted clothings in medieval literature and pictures etc.)

Have nice day,
Thomas

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Chris Gilman




Location: California
Joined: 07 Dec 2007

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PostPosted: Sat 04 Sep, 2010 7:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas R. wrote:
Chris Gilman wrote:
I have heard this argument all the time and a completely disagree. I have (in my rental stock) many arming coats (20+) with mail attached and they are not a maintenance problem at all. The mail does not get terribly rusty and secondly, if you could afford mail, I’m sure you could afford to have someone maintain it for you. It takes little time to remove the sewn in liner and clean both and reattach them. I am not saying all mail was lined, but I don’t agree it wasn’t because of rust & maintenance.


Perhaps the linen wasn't sewn to it, but attached by straps like later armor has been fixed on padded jacks? Would be more reasonable than sewing it. Well, but this will be speculative, as long as we don't find any surviving hauberks.

No offence meant,
Thomas


Sorry for the late response, I didn't want you to think I was offended or anything. I was in the middle of finishing my Pennsic house and lost track of this thread. http://diligentdwarves.blogspot.com/

I think perhaps there could have been both, but I don't see much of a disadvantage in sewing it in. At the time, everything was hand sewn, so hand sewing was no big deal. The women that works for me in my costume shop is very fast and precise at hand sewing and if an item needs hand sewing, she just does it, no problem. I have found with many “old school” techniques that I use, the younger guys often say, “Wow, isn’t there a much faster way to do that?” Then when they see how quick I finish “it” they are blown away.
I believe that our modern society often looks at “older” ways of doing things as time consuming and troublesome, when they really are not. Look at making mail for example, people often roll their eyes in disbelief when I say “I made the mail” and I’m not fast at all and it didn’t take very long. I can only imagine how fast period mail makes were. They had to be. In fact there is one period wood cut or etching (I don’t remember which) that depicts a mail maker with his tools and in the background is a wheel with pins on it. I often wondered if this was used to link rows of “chain” onto mail fabric. Knut (from http://www.weldedchainmail.com/) uses a technique for making mail that is incredibly fast. A variation of this technique could possibly be used with a wheel as illustrated. If so, linking mail could be very fast.

Chris
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Mark Hale




Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: 15 Sep 2006

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PostPosted: Wed 04 May, 2011 2:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi folks,

Just thought would drop in and mention a post I made on the topic of Historical Maille, and the work of Gavin Jones AKA the Maille Tailor who does some work with me at Cap-a-pie

Gavin has managed to perfect a pretty good tailored ventail, see http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...p;start=22

As I mention in the post, the image doesn't really do it justice in terms of showing the tailoring around the chin, which is, in my opinion, a key factor in getting this right. This "pouch" really does need to be tailored well to get the flow right.

It's certainly great to see there is a good deal of interest with people wanting to get things like this spot on.

Cheers

Mark

http://www.capapie.co.uk/custom
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Wed 04 May, 2011 3:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the update Mark! The ventail with chin-pouch certainly looks interesting. Definitely something I will take into account when I start modifying my coif.
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jul, 2011 2:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Excuse me as I bring this thread back from the dead but; we all know and love the venatil design, but how about the other one that doesn't have it?
I've always wanted one in such a style (attached to a hauberk of course with attached mufflers etc.]), and they seem straight forward enough... Until one tries to build one Confused
Sorry about the hijack, but I didn't think it worth starting a new thread with this one, so aptly named, already being here.



 Attachment: 190.96 KB
Excuse the poor quality and crude drawings. [ Download ]

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Last edited by Sam Gordon Campbell on Tue 05 Jul, 2011 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Mon 04 Jul, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting design, but I wonder how well it would work in practice. It appears to consist of a lot of separate pieces joined together instead of one piece with expansions and contractions at the appropriate places. I wonder if having so many seams isn't going to cause you trouble creating that piece.

I based my initial piece on this original from Gothland. It appears to have the general shape of your design with a similar shape of face opening an no ventail (although the rows flow differently). I tried that before I enlarged the face opening on my remodelled coif so the coif didn't cover my chin anymore. It's tight, and you need to really pay attention to the shape of your chin, but it works. The main advantage of your design seems to be that you can englarge he opening again so you can fit your head through it.

I also wonder if making the face opening enlargeable like that isn't going to cause you trouble with your helmet. My guess would be that the maille would start to bunch up a bit around the opening when you tighten the lace loop. I can't imagine that fitting a helm over bunched-up maille is going to be comfortable.

If you build it according to your design, I'd really like to see the result and hear your experiences of how it works in practice.

The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl


Last edited by Sander Marechal on Tue 05 Jul, 2011 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jul, 2011 8:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
... It appears to consist of a lot of separate pieces joined together instead of one piece with expansions and contractions at the appropriate places. I wonder if having so many seams isn't going to cause you trouble creating that piece...
... The main advantage of your design seems to be that you can englarge he opening again so you can fit your head through it...
... I also wonder if making the face opening enlargeable like that isn't going to cause you trouble with your helmet. My guess would be that the maille would start to bunch up a bit around the opening when you tighten the lace loop. I can't imagine that fitting a hel[m] over bunched-up maille is going to be comfortable. If you build it according to your design, I'd really like to see the result and hear your experiences of how it works in practice.


Hi Sander,

Well the reason for the multiple pieces is more a lack of skill on my part than anything else, as I lack the tailoring skill of some. The theory I think is that the seams would (once everything is in place and tweaked accordingly) blend in or merge into it. That's the theory at least Big Grin
I've seen quite a few effigies and pictures with the coif around the neck like so, and I just think it looks cool and is a pretty good idea too.
Hopefully I'd be wearing a cervelliere underneath it, so that the maille on my head shouldn't be an issue, and any pressure from a great helm on the maille would hopefully be negated by the padded coif with the ring on it being on the outside.
And I think I'll give it a try in thin butted maille at some point Laughing Out Loud

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Anil Ogretici




Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Joined: 02 Jun 2011

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul, 2011 12:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello everyone !

I have been following your posts for quite some time and I must say I spend hours reading what you said but it seems it is never enough Happy I'm living in Turkey and it is really, really hard to find any books other then Ottomans or Turks when it comes to medieval times. So like this site, opinions of others really help me figure out what to do.

The reason why I posted my first post here is this; I would like to make / collect 12th Century (specially 2nd Crusade) Norman Knight kit. And what I read here, I guess I need and full hauberk with attached coif and mittens. I'm making my gambeson, complete set of chainmail and maybe will make a tabard myself. What I want to ask you is the picture of "Guy de Lusignan" which made me confused when I saw it. Although I understand that separated coifs belongs to mid 13th century or later times, this picture exactly illustrated as a man with separated coif in 1192.

Am I getting this picture wrong, is it illustrated wrongly as the picture belongs to 1843 or is this the first steps to using separated coif ?

I'm sorry if I trouble you with this late painted picture and can't support with more pictures. But as I said, I have really limited source on these subjects. Although I ordered some Osprey Publishing books about Normans, 2nd Crusade and English Knight 1200-1300, they did not arrive yet.

So here is the picture what I was talking about. Any comment will be greatly appreciated Happy

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John Turner




Location: East Riding of Yorkshire, England
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jul, 2011 3:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anil,

Your guess about the picture being "wrong" because of the date of the picture itself is spot on. Pictures from this time cannot really be relied on for accurate portrayals of historical arms and armour of the mediaeval period. The mid 19th century saw the rise of romanticism in literature and art, where the tales of the middle ages (and the associated art) were very much "tidied up" for the contemporary market, and often mixed with elements of fantasy. Romantic art of the period was very much in the same vein, and in a similar way to the SCA of today, combined elements of historical fact with modern day conveniences. Therefore Mid 19th century art depicting ancient and mediaeval times should be treated with a degree of caution.

In this picture itself there are a number of anachronisms that are typically romantic, including the embellishment on the cloak (brcade was not seen until much later), the shape and decoration of the sword furniture, and as you so rightly pointed out the Coif.

I am not an expert on the art of the late 12th century (there will be those on this forum that are), and the two best known sources around this period are either too early (Maciejowski (Morgan) Bible) or too late (the Codex Manesse) to be specific. However the Codex Manesse does purport to show scenes from the historical lives of individual who were alive at the same time as Guy de Lusignan, and therefore would be closer than the picture you posted.

"Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it."

Edmund Burke

"If History is so important, why is it so easy to forget?"
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Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jul, 2011 4:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi John,

I think you're a little out with those manuscripts. The manesse is early 14c, Morgan is mid-13c

Anil,

For late 12c, maybe something like these:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?year=...ew=gallery

You'll notice in these a definate later style as they move towards 1250 - where full helms start to appear along with heater shields and surcoats. But for late 12c, you can't go wrong with integrated mail coif/hauberk/mittens, faceplate (very late 12c) or conical helm, flat-topped kite shield and no surcoat.
Surcoats were around, but by far the majority of manuscripts show knights without them - so I'm fairly convinced that through most of the 12c, it was generally only the knightly orders who wore any kind of surcoat over their mail.
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John Turner




Location: East Riding of Yorkshire, England
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jul, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Brian,

That will teach me to read threads properly before replying - and I should have been working so maybe it's karma!

I even managed to type the error I read!

Oh well, back to the grindstone......

Thanks for those pics I have seen them before but that website is not one I knew, and looks good!

"Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it."

Edmund Burke

"If History is so important, why is it so easy to forget?"
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S. Sebok





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PostPosted: Tue 27 Nov, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have a coif made by Erik D Schmid and it fits pretty similar to how I saw coifs in medieval depictions, as it doesnt have the open chin and neck area and fits rather tightly around me.



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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 3:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

S. Sebok wrote:
I have a coif made by Erik D Schmid and it fits...

So that's an Erik D coif. Eek!
I've never seen much of his work before.
Niiice...

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 4:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi S. Sebok, very nice coif, I wish I had the money to commission a piece from Erik. I can't see it in your pictures but I'm assuming that your coif is laced up at the back to tighten it, is this correct?



A thought just occurred to me guys (me, thinking, strange I know), but often mail coifs and ventails covered a lot of the face, sometimes leaving only the area around the eyes uncovered. My question is how protective do you guys think that mail would be to the face area? I'm guessing that for breathability and comfort the padding was minimal, and even if it wasn't any projectile or melee weapon would at least smash teeth and facial bones.

Éirinn go Brách
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 7:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
Hi S. Sebok, very nice coif, I wish I had the money to commission a piece from Erik. I can't see it in your pictures but I'm assuming that your coif is laced up at the back to tighten it, is this correct?



A thought just occurred to me guys (me, thinking, strange I know), but often mail coifs and ventails covered a lot of the face, sometimes leaving only the area around the eyes uncovered. My question is how protective do you guys think that mail would be to the face area? I'm guessing that for breathability and comfort the padding was minimal, and even if it wasn't any projectile or melee weapon would at least smash teeth and facial bones.


Still better than just a nasal helm without a coif. Or better than nothing at all if you couldn't afford a helm but you could a coif.
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Robert Rootslane




Location: Estonia
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 7:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
Hi S. Sebok, very nice coif, I wish I had the money to commission a piece from Erik. I can't see it in your pictures but I'm assuming that your coif is laced up at the back to tighten it, is this correct?



A thought just occurred to me guys (me, thinking, strange I know), but often mail coifs and ventails covered a lot of the face, sometimes leaving only the area around the eyes uncovered. My question is how protective do you guys think that mail would be to the face area? I'm guessing that for breathability and comfort the padding was minimal, and even if it wasn't any projectile or melee weapon would at least smash teeth and facial bones.


Speaking from a personal experience.

I have a lousy spring steel butted coif. The padding for the face part is 3 layers of woolen cloth, covered with linen on both sides. It has thicker padding on other parts of the head.

Have receaved a few swordhits to the face with blunts. Since one cant cut through mail i figure its the same or even better (since historical mail is probably better than mine) in a "real" situation. It hurts but no blood, lost teeth or bone fractures or anything that serious. Some mild bruising has occurred sometimes.

I would think that the damage would be greater with a heavy axe or a mace. A spearthrust would probably devastate the face also.
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Robert Rootslane




Location: Estonia
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 7:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Stephen Curtin wrote:
Hi S. Sebok, very nice coif, I wish I had the money to commission a piece from Erik. I can't see it in your pictures but I'm assuming that your coif is laced up at the back to tighten it, is this correct?



A thought just occurred to me guys (me, thinking, strange I know), but often mail coifs and ventails covered a lot of the face, sometimes leaving only the area around the eyes uncovered. My question is how protective do you guys think that mail would be to the face area? I'm guessing that for breathability and comfort the padding was minimal, and even if it wasn't any projectile or melee weapon would at least smash teeth and facial bones.


Still better than just a nasal helm without a coif. Or better than nothing at all if you couldn't afford a helm but you could a coif.


By the way, do you think a coif would be cheaper? I imagine it would take more work than a simple helmet, and also quite a similar amount of material.
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