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Nate C.




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PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2005 5:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We haven't had any posts in here for a while so here's a few to get us started again. Truth is again more fantastic than fantasy. Big Grin

Nathan - I finally found the pic with Maximilian I's messer and longsword Cool Big Grin .

Cheers,



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Longsword: Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy - gold, pearls, rubies and Narwal horn. Hunting Sword: Maximilian, son-in-law of Charles - gold and ivory

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Feudal sword, hunting sword and hunting knife of Maximilian I

Nate C.

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Hisham Gaballa




PostPosted: Wed 20 Jul, 2005 7:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As someone who has played computer Fantasy Role playing games and posted on RPG forums I couldn't agree more. Many fantasy games designers and players idea of a beautiful sword are grotesque and totally impractical "Anime" style swords. There are a lot of exceptions to this of course and I have myself tried to influence people into admiring more elegant and simple designs such as 15th century European longswords, Persian shamshirs and Turkish yataghans, with decidedly mixed results.

My own contribution to the pictures are these two swords from the "Blessed Swords" collection in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul. These are swords attributed to the Prophet Muhammad and his companions while some of these are undoubtedly early Arab swords, others seem to be 15th century century Iranian swords. These two belong to the latter category.





Because of the Blessed Swords status as "sacred relics", many have been elaborately ornamented and decorated in later periods which makes dating them even more difficult.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 12 Dec, 2005 10:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That rapier is fantastic, Craig, thanks for sharing that! I love the nod to classical Greco-Roman art that was so prevalent in the Italian Renaissance.
Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Mon 12 Dec, 2005 11:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
That rapier is fantastic, Craig, thanks for sharing that! I love the nod to classical Greco-Roman art that was so prevalent in the Italian Renaissance.


Bill,

If you haven't done so recently, I highly recommend you and anyone else who's interested to have a look at some of the items listed in the various auction houses linked to myArmoury. There's plenty of other decorative historical weapons that one could include for this thread.
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Alexander Hinman




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 8:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig, those are some really awesome swords.

The one I find really interesting and quite curious is the falchion with the African heads on the pommel and crossguard. I mean, thinking in terms of the position of most Europeans toward Africa at the time, it makes me wonder why you would model a sword on a caricatured African's head.

Alot of this detail Is amazing. The level of etching, casting, etc. are all spectacular, and I think it's unfortunate (mostly for our interests) modern rulers don't greet each other with gifts of a similar type (an etched Winchester, perhaps)

One thing I've noticed about all of these ornate swords is that the basic shape of the blade is simplistic in comparison to many of the fantasy blades I've seen (with jagged serrations, holes, and divots etc.) so in that respect, I wonder if there are any historical examples of odd-shaped blades. I doubt there would be, but hey, it's worth asking.
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Felix Wang




PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Entering this discussion at a very late date, it seems to me that a dividing line can be drawn somewhere around 1400 to 1450; swords after this time are generally decorated (even models made for mass distribution to enlisted men tend to have some trim - eagle-head pommel, rope trim to the guard, and so on); and later swords often show decoration that alters the outline of the weapon. It is in the earlier period that most of the plain (and they can be very plain) war swords are seen - i.e. a spike hilt and disc pommel, and nothing else. There are a small fraction of the swords of this period that are elaborately decorated - but the decoration is entirely on the surface. If these swords are back-lit, their silhouettes are identical to those of many of their plainer brethren. As a generalization, it seems the decorated swords of the earlier era belong to persons of very high status - princes and kings; whereas many of the Renaissance and later elaborate swords belong to persons of rank, but nothing like royalty.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sat 13 Feb, 2010 8:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another crazy, but real, sword.

This one is from the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, 17th century. A creature holding a gem in its hand? Really? Yes. Really.



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Copyright © Bayerisches Nationalmuseum

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Peter Johnsson




PostPosted: Sun 14 Feb, 2010 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have a soft spot for this one and know I need to make something like it one fine day.
This is from a time period when fantasy (or mythology and symbols) was a respected field of learning. Displaying the fantastic was not so much an expression of escapism as a way to show an understanding of the mysteries of the world.



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Peter Johnsson




PostPosted: Sun 14 Feb, 2010 6:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another fantastic sword of truly incredible workmanship.
I am in awe of this piece. Cut steel and gold inlay. The blade is a no nonsense fighting blade and the balance is that of a serious weapon.



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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 14 Feb, 2010 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Another fantastic sword of truly incredible workmanship.
I am in awe of this piece. Cut steel and gold inlay. The blade is a no nonsense fighting blade and the balance is that of a serious weapon.


I love that piece as well, Peter. Thank you for taking the time to post the photos. I've been told on numerous occasions by those handling such weapons that many of these are made with a great attention to the dynamics and balance so that they are very clearly intended to be used. I think you summed it up very nicely when you mentioned that the topic of "fantasy" was not really intended as escapism. Very concise and accurate summary there.

Cheers.

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Maurizio D'Angelo




PostPosted: Mon 15 Feb, 2010 5:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

sword beautiful.
But will the quillon so mounted on the blade, resonates to the vibrations? Of course when the blade impacts.
Serves to stiffen the blade?
I refer to the details below.



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Ciao
Maurizio
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Peter Johnsson




PostPosted: Mon 15 Feb, 2010 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio,

This is a detail that many swords share: the arms of the guard grabs on to the sides of the ricasso. It was not to stiffen the blade, I think, but serves to make the hilt more secure. In some cases (like the embellished sword I posted) the arms are not very hefty and may be well served by extra support.
It is not a universal feature. Not all swords are fitted like this. Especially in collections today when old blades and old hilts have been mixed and matched the fit is as a norm not at all precise. I have a feeling it was a bit more common originally, when the cutler fitted a hilt to an original blade or tweaked a hilt for better fit in a remounting.

A few examples where the arms grip around or pinch strongly against the sides of the ricasso:
(And what some kind of thin padding, like textile or thin leather between the arms and the ricasso in the top two examples, isn´t. It is just grit and dust.)



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Maurizio D'Angelo




PostPosted: Mon 15 Feb, 2010 11:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Peter,
Thanks for the comprehensive response, is greatly appreciated.
thanks for posting these photos, are not common, at least for me.
I know this is completely off topic, but yesterday I saw Arn, the last knight (I see very little TV, almost never) I was fascinated by that sword.
I write to you today, as is a small world ... Happy

Ciao
Maurizio
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Shahril Dzulkifli




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: Ornamentation: Fantasy vs. History (photo-intensive)         Reply with quote

Szczerbiec*, the sword used during the coronation of kings in Poland


The ricasso, hollowed, shows the Polish royal arms (a white eagle on a red shield)
Engravings on handle and guard


*pronounced sh-cherb-yets

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- Marcus Aurelius


Last edited by Shahril Dzulkifli on Sun 07 Mar, 2010 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow. Is the color on that blade for real? Or an artifact of the photography?
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Bartek Strojek




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't recall anything about any color/effects on the blade, so that's probably just photo.

Unfortunately, I can't find detailed photos of the blade, guess that museum tries to enforce people to come and see themselves. Wink

There are nice details of the grip available though

http://en.wikivisual.com/images/7/72/Szczerbiec.jpg
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Shahril Dzulkifli




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PostPosted: Sat 03 Apr, 2010 5:10 am    Post subject: Re: Ornamentation: Fantasy vs. History (photo-intensive)         Reply with quote

Replacements for the first one (U.R.L. links expired)



“You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength”

- Marcus Aurelius
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sun 04 Apr, 2010 5:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
I have a soft spot for this one and know I need to make something like it one fine day.
This is from a time period when fantasy (or mythology and symbols) was a respected field of learning. Displaying the fantastic was not so much an expression of escapism as a way to show an understanding of the mysteries of the world.


That sword has an oddly "steampunk" look. Now I must keep one of my girl friends well away from this thread or she'll start badgering me to commission a replica.....
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C. Stringer




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PostPosted: Sun 04 Apr, 2010 5:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Heh, I don't think anyone can really argue as to whether or not real swords were ever ornamented after seeing this discussion. Some are downright beautiful pieces art, as well as deadly weapons. Win-win all around.
Nothing Gold can stay...so let us wait for the coming day...
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George E




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PostPosted: Fri 04 Jun, 2010 11:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

C. Stringer wrote:
Heh, I don't think anyone can really argue as to whether or not real swords were ever ornamented after seeing this discussion. Some are downright beautiful pieces art, as well as deadly weapons. Win-win all around.


definitely agreed, however, there is something very important to mention.

Most of the swords displayed in this thread are ceremonial swords. Most swords that would be used in battle had little to no ornaments, especially in the blade (getting an etching that someone took a lot of time to complete scratched/destroyed by another blade is not something most people would want). With that being said (and using the same comparison as the OP), would I bring out an Anduril to a battle... well, it's too heavy (as many manufacturers have mentioned, mainly due to the pommel) and there are simply better performing swords out there, which, though not as "pretty" get the job done better.

So, in short:

In battle: Undecorated Historical vs. Slightly Decorated Fantasy (historical wins)
For show: Heavily Decorated Historical vs. Decorated Fantasy (historical wins)*

*Let's use Conan's sword for this one... any of the swords displayed here would be a better choice, and they would not break the belt supporting it... (oh boy, I can feel Conan fans charging at me... better get my knight out... and a shield, which they can't use *muhahahaha*)
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