[Matt J.]

Forgive this unusual intrusion. I've read multiple discussions on this site about the tools of war--and I am highly impressed by the intelligent and insightful knowledge shared across such forums. Should it be allowed by the rules of the site and if the community is willing to oblige my request, I'd like to appeal for help in logically and realistically applying medieval arms to a game system I am developing.

After talking to people who know the subject thoroughly, reading discussions, considering things, and seeing examples of what realism looks like, I have constructed a workable combat system that follows reality. My experience and knowledge is small compared to many, however, which is why I've come to request assistance in accurately statting this equipment.


The system to represent weapons is quite simple, being split into four parts.

Damage is the first one, think of an unarmoured target for this. Separate from wounding, this is purely a matter of destructive power and effect against flesh. Bigger weapons do more damage, swords tend to do the most, things like military picks do the least.
-
--For damage and hitting your target, you roll against a Cut-off point, usually 50. The higher you roll over the Cut-off Point, the more damage you do, your weapon's damage rating multiplied. Rolling low means scratches and scathes, which do fractions of your weapon's damage.


Armour Penetration (ie: AP) is the second thing. This is a modifier to damage, basically. Swords which are lousy against most armour might have 0.5x-ish, weapons designed to penetrate armour like war-hammers might have values more like 2x.
-
--Explaining further, armour has a value. Light Chain might be a value of 10. When attacking armoured targets, you apply your AP mod to your Damage result. If you score 20 damage with an AP of 0.5x, it becomes 10 damage.
Then, subtract the target armour from this. So the 10 damage minus the Light Chain equals 0.


Accuracy is the next one. This is how easy it is to hit your enemy at optimal range, how difficult it is for them to defend. Axes, I've heard, are difficult to block, so they might get a +1 Bonus.


Blocking. This is the defensive ability of a weapon, when in your opponent's striking range. 20-foot Halberds aren't so good for defence when the enemy is up close, but weapons designed specifically for blocking would be.



Here is an attempt I made to stat some "common" weapons. I may be totally off base in places, please tell me your views and knowledge as to this.

[Gabriel Lebec]

I have moved this topic to the Off-topic Talk forum. Please note the description for this forum: "Discussions of general history and other miscellaneous topics relating to arms and armour that do not specifically fit our other forums."

Also note the description of the Historical Arms Talk forum, where this topic originated: "Discussions of reproduction and authentic historical arms and armour from various cultures and time periods."

Thank you.

[Matt J.]

[Ozsváth Árpád-István]

Do you intend to implement this in some sort of computer game?
A greatsword should have longer range than a shortsword or a dagger. Another factor could be the weapons speed. While you swing the great axe for a devastating blow one could inflict several stabs with a dagger. I think 19 damage for the great axe is not enough compared to the 6 of the dagger which can be used only from point blank range or thrown.

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Andrew Maxwell]

What level of realism are you aiming at? Because I can see you have included quite a few rpg-isms that don't match up with reality. That's not a criticism as such- I love a good RPG- but it's hard to know what level to pitch my comments at. Here a few things I would consider which these types of games generally don't:

*Bastard sword = longsword = hand-and-a-half sword. All of us HEMA guys hate it when a single handed sword is referred to as a longsword
What rpgs call a longsword = arming sword (or just a "sword")

*Spears- in reality, spears own in single combat. I have way more training time invested with the longsword than any other weapon, but if I actually had to fight for my life a spear would be my first choice. And they shouldn't be -1 to block; hafted weapons like spears, pollaxes etc are easier to block with than a sword, so long as they are not too long (which most of them aren't- by this I mean less than about 8-9' long). Any of the pole weapons except pikes should probably have a bonus to blocking.

*As has been mentioned, the range difference between a dagger and a sword is enormous, and range is way undervalued in games. If I have a longsword and my opponent has a dagger, 99% chance I win, even if he is more skilled than me (unless he's wearing plate- see below).

*You can't cut plate armour. In fact, plate armour so completely changes the dynamics of this kind of fight I think you need a separate set of stats when combatants are wearing it.

*Spears, pikes, and swords used at the half-sword should have a high AP. That's what they're for

I have to run but those are some things to think about anyway.

cheers
Andy

[Nathan Johnson]

well I have used just about every weapon on that list at some time and been hit with all of them many times.
basically in real life training systems the act of blocking or striking for a longsword (or most other western weapons)are part of the same technique used for spear and pike. most games have swords giving extra defence because you can "fence" with a sword but every other weapon just hacks stuff.

unfortunately fence, as in "the art of fence" is the name for using weapons in general, short for the art of defence and all weapons block well when you know how ( axes and spears can actually be used to "fence" like a sword really well in real life).

Game systems for scoring damage based on weapon are compleat and utter hogwash in every way!
in real life armoured combat weapons either glance of armour completely or cause HUGE catastrophic failure and death, anything in-between and you just have to ignore it if you want to survive.
but in games weapons manage to pierce armour with little pin pricks that take of small amounts of health at a time,
but in real life a single dagger thrust kills instantly and so dose every other weapon, with amazing ease they just handle
diferently in different situations.
One thing though size wise, a pike isint just long its THICK and If you ever get hit with one,even a light tap with a blunt one can pass right through a 1/2 in shield and will put a dent in a breastplate the size of a tennis ball( It really feels like you have been hit with a lamp post) yet I can turn aside a two handed sword strike with my 1mm thick gauntlet and only get a slight scratch on the steel, but basically for all but the most immense weapons its velosity that matters not size at all

[Nathan Johnson]

concentrate on range more and make separate " to hit " tables for amoured and un armoured and you will make huge improvements over many rpg's

if you could also make a system for grappling at -1 range with daggers doing massive criticals when this happens it would be awesome

[Sander Marechal]

[Matt J.]

@Ozsváth Árpád-István: I intend to apply it to both a computer game RPG, and a pen&paper RPG--the rules changing an amount between them (you can have more complicated stuff in the computer one, since the comp does the math). These questions are specifically for the pen&paper version, since I can do an amount of the conversions to the computer one myself.

It's true that greatswords should have longer range than daggers. However, to keep things manageable, range is simplified into five-foot squares. Characters might also be assumed to close range with a dagger when they see a chance to strike.
-
With weapon speed, that's what I'm basing accuracy off. Someone who can strike more times or more quickly has a better chance of hitting, then someone who can only strike once slowly. Theoretically one could model a system to match the weapon speed, but one of my goals is to simplify the PnP mechanics.
-
You're likely correct with the weapon damages being wrong is this respect, I'm not certina how high the big weapons' damage should be compared to the smaller ones. Though, this would be assuming a proper flesh cut/stab, so whether it only hits at point-blank range is irrelevant.


@Jean Thibodeau: True, but that's mostly up to players to decide if they can get the job done with a less-huge weapon . If it's a hit on the back of the neck, you'll probably do something terrible not matter what you use. "If it's a strike on the arm, the wrench will leave a mean bruise, and the katana will cut through it and part of the body" to quote a weapon specialist who has been helping me.

Very true. Armour Penetration was designed for this, so that you can have swords do more damage to fleshy unarmoured people, while military hammers are better against armoured knights.

There's always half-swording, when fighting armour characters. Generally though, fighting the unarmoured ones isn't a problem of killing them - the bleeding might take them out long before they get medical aid - it's a problem of putting them down before you inflict significant injury on you .

Always good to have e different views, which bring more thing to think about, so you can get your system fine-tuned to the hairline. Due to a large experience with various games and RPGs, I think my work is reasonable is converting reality into a thrilling, dangerous, fun game. What's more, it isn't too complicated to use .

Thanks for the welcome! I hope to contribute something in return for all this kind help I'm receiving from all of you. Perhaps someone here will enjoy the system when it's finished? We'll see.


@Andrew Maxwell: Well, as close to the reality I can get without making the game un-fun or too complex (true reality would involve lots of pain, and lots of waiting around bored, after all--and worrying about really minor details). It's true that I included standard-RPG tripe there, sorry to admit, more because I don't know a heap about specific weapons.

I'm aware that a longsword can be used just like a bastard sword, but I thought the latter might be slightly bigger--wasn't thinking of the longsword as one-handed, and forgot that they might be the same thing, sorries (of course, you probably get so many variants of the long sword...).
I should've included arming sword, that is true. Was using the most conventional names to start with before I moved on to statting less-used-in-RPGs weapons.

Thank you for clarifying this, I was not certain of the lack of a hand-guard would get your hands or fingers cut. I guess it's still difficult to block with one-handed axes? Would swords be mediocre for blocking :o?

Well, that's what the defence penalty is for. I could put in an accuracy penalty as well, just that I thought the quickness with give it a bonus should you get a chance to trike. For a computer game, it'd be great fun calculating ranges. Sadly, I worry that it'd get too complex for a pen and paper game.

Indeed, Armour Penetration should ensure that a sword does little to no damage against plate-wearers. A rule would be placed that damage done with a sword (except in some ultra-magicy-sword cases), would be bludgeoning stun damage from getting knocked around so hard.

Wasn't sure how good spears and pikes were for armour penetrating (though javelins are similar to spears, I guess). It's very good to get skilled opinions for this reason, to set my course more properly. Halfswording will be fun, as a means of being somewhat effective against plate-wearers and so-forth .

Thanks Andrew, I'll consider all of this. Try to produce a new set of numbers for everyone to look at.

Cheers!


@Nathan Johnson: Wow , I hope you're all right. You must have a very good opinion for this, at least.
I've assimilated attack and defence into one roll from each character, so this is represented reasonably well. Can a pike really be used well for this, at close-range to your enemy ? You'd think the long shaft would become cumbersome, and that pikemen used their secondary weapons when enemies closed in.

As in, shafted axes, or one handed axes o.o? I suppose there'd be ways to block with a one handed axe, but I figured it'd be more scare-tactics and striking-first, since it doesn't look like something you can block with easily. Of course, I haven't seen people fight with axes before.

A good number of them are, that's true. I have played some which seemed to do a reasonable job.
This is what I'm going for, largely. One hit can put you into shock from pain, smaller hits can be ignored for the moment (most anything can be, when people try to stab your face).
To be fair, getting bashed around for ages would eventually exhaust you, even if it didn't get through your armour, but games like DnD are ridiculous. As for killing instantly, few things do - or need to - usually, lest you score the heart or brain. Much less pleasant that way, since your enemies and your friends can ly their, split into two pieces, and not die for a good while later.
Wasn't aware how thick a pike was, good to realize they weren't just long spears, they were BIG, extra-dangerous spears. I'll make sure to give them good armour penetration. Though, thinking more on it, javelins do hell on heavy armour, and pikes are a bit like giant javelins.

Well, I could add in range tables which are more detailed, but if the system gets too detailed, it'll become hard to use. If I can get the same/similar result through simpler means, I'd like to.
For different hit tables, you hit a random area of the target's body, or can use a technique to make a (somewhat more difficult) aimed shot, at less-armoured areas of the body. Armour penetration is an attempt to make it work how it is, also.
--~Interesting thought: I might need to give bigger swords a lower level of AP, since they do so much more flesh-damage which wouldn't apply against plate.~--


@Sander Marechal: Well, that's why I have levels of success and armour penetration. A really, really good hit could do something, where as most of your hits against plate with a sword, do nothing.

Mostly, this is what armour penetration does. Requires more work on my end, to balance all the numbers, but means less variables for players. You could use half-swording, including the mordschlag, should you decide to. I could also include Techniques for other weapons which are more effective against armour, changing their values.
For warhammers, I'll probably need to include two sets of statistics, for the ones with separate-use heads. As for getting chain to work like chain, could add in a footnote saying: "Armour value reduced by 5(?) when attack is bludgeoning."

Hoping to do that with Accuracy and Blocking, since it'd be easier on the players than a separate range system. I could lower the accuracy of half-swording, since the range is shorter, for example. If Grappling, things change.
I gave spears longer range based on this idea. It's not too tough getting onto one spearman's face, but if he has several buddies around him... they can get multiple stabs against you when you move into range.

Thanks very much for suggesting alternative means. I should look at Warhammer's system, to see if it's armour system could be used in some way. Thanks Sander.



I'd like to thank everyone who posted once again, for giving me so much advice and help. I'll work more on my weapons, and try to get them more accurate and sensible. You're great guys, thanks so much!

[Jean Henri Chandler]

Matt, I sympathise with your effort and can tell you from experience you have a difficult task ahead of you.

I agree with what the other folks said, ditto on the D&Disms like what a longsword is, the value of a spear et-al. I'll just add my $.02 in support of what they said:

Reach should have more of an effect than an extra square of distance (or not). As others upthread pointed out, reach is always undervalued in games, as is defensive use of weapons, which is why a staff or a spear usually isn't a good weapon in games but it's very good in real life.. A longer reach gives you a big advantage in striking first. Of course once the range is closed it's the opposite and the shorter weapon gets the edge, different weapons work better at different ranges, which can be hard to cope with in a game. And a weapon can be useful at short or long range depending on how it is used... for example a spear used one-handed with a shield is very effective at long range but not so much close-in. But a spear used two-handed by an experienced martial artist (i.e. like a staff) is effective at both long and short range. Same with a longsword used with half-swording techniques.

Daggers are better armor-piercing weapons than any type of axe. Daggers generally tend to be badly underrated in all RPG and Computer games, as if a 12" blade is a sort of nuisance weapon like a mosquito, which is another annoying DnDism. This is basically becuase most games only really model one value for a weapon, damage, and everybody knows daggers aren't supposed to be as important as swords. The truth is not all Medieval warriors carried swords, but everyone had a knife or a dagger for very good reasons. Similarly, axes don't cut through metal armor except in Anime films and World of Warcraft. You really can't cut through metal armor like mail or plate harness with any hand weapon except maybe a large polearm. Axes aren't generally good armor-pericing weapons at all unless there is a back-spike or hammer (although they are good at cutting up wooden shields). In fact if you are going to model armor- piercing ability you should include specialist armor-piercing weapons like war-hammers, war-picks, roundel daggers, estoc, halberds, katars, etc. Once you model this factor suddenly there is a reason for such weapons.

Daggers also have real defensive value, especially in conjunction with another weapon, though they block better vs. some attacks (thrusts) than others. Hence the blocking dagger and the main gauche, which were the principle defense in some fighting systems we see in many of our surviving rapier manuals for example. Thrusting weapons like spears and daggers and certain types of swords will generally have better armor penetration than cutting weapons. Effectively a weapon like a mace which is designed for crushing is also an armor-piercing weapon.

I'm not sure a sword does more damage than an axe, though as people have pointed out it can be a moot point. If you look at test-cutting videos, an axe will carve though a few more inches of flesh and bone typically than a sword will, but potentially a good quality example of either weapon in the hands of an experienced user will cause catastrophic damage to human flesh (easily enough to sever an arm, for example). The main advantage of a sword over other hand weapons is in it's versatility in both attack and defense it's and speed.

I wrote an RPG book called Weapons of the Ancient World with realistic stats for about 100 pre-industrial weapons, including reach and speed and defensive values. I'll send you a free copy of the PDF if you like, just PM me. If you are making some OGL based game (5 foot squares kind of sounds that way) everything in the book is open-source ('Open Game Content' according to the OGL license) so you can borrow ideas freely, though it is appreciated if you credit us as a source if you use our data. There is also an extensive bibliogrophy of primary and secondary sources for pre-industrial armor and weapons and armed combat that you can use for your own research.

I also agree Warhammer FRPG is a pretty good place to look, though I suspect the 1st edition is a bit better than the current one. I've heard some good things about GURPS 4E though I haven't seen it, I heard a rumor one of the prominent members of this forum is working on their Martial Arts suppliment with them. You should look at Riddle of Steel as well it was written by Jake Norwood who is a prominent Renaissance Martial Arts instructor and current director of HEMA Alliance. (by way of disclosure, I wrote the weapons supplement for Riddle of Steel a few years ago). Burning Wheel is also worth a look though they take a more abstract approach to specific weapons.

Hope that helps,

J

[Andrew Maxwell]

Firstly, let me just echo the comment that what you're doing is a big task, and really hard to get right. Ultimately, you will have to sacrifice realism in places to get a playable game. It's always good when someone really makes the effort to get it right though, so I applaud you for that.

Now to a few more comments:

[Nathan Johnson]

Can a pike really be used well for this, at close-range to your enemy ? You'd think the long shaft would become cumbersome, and that pikemen used their secondary weapons when enemies closed in.

In a fight with pole weapons the opportunity to draw your sword rarley arises, because the way you fight with them is to hook or push your opposing lines weapons pushing them up into the air or more effectively into the ground and stand on the tip and hope one of your buddys takes him out ,but either way when the weapons connect you get to grappling range by getting your opponents weapon point out of line and sliding up the shaft of his and pretty much tackling him. You try not to let go of weapon shafts because keeping pressure on them is usually binding up an enemy
In every mock fight where I have used pole arms I have ended up drawing my dagger but only gotten to draw my sword once.( not that I havent wanted to)

As in, shafted axes, or one handed axes o.o? I suppose there'd be ways to block with a one handed axe, but I figured it'd be more scare-tactics and striking-first, since it doesn't look like something you can block with easily. Of course, I haven't seen people fight with axes before.]

With a one handed axe you can block with the top edge of the blade and hook with the bottom edge, thats what the crescent or wedge shape is for you can do the same with a two handed axe but it also blocks like a staff as well.

Sorry the quote function kept messing up for some reason.[/quote]

[Ozsváth Árpád-István]

[P. Cha]

Pikes are a special case of polearms. MOST polearms are quite usable even at close ranges...the pike...umm isn't. Don't assume all pole weapons are used like pikes because they aren't.

[Nathan Johnson]

Didit mean to infer that thay were, I only used the word polearms because I was trying to describe fighing with mixed weapons in a predominantly pike situation. like when I metioned hooking I ment by the halberdiers, so sorry for lumping stuff togeather.

This stuff is hard for me to explane without using visuals and a todeller is "helping" me

[Walter S]

[Matt J.]

@Jean Henri Chandler: Indeed, making a system so that it's realistic but simple and easy to play is very hard on the creator. It's good I'm more-or-less down to statistics.

I was thinking of the Bastard sword as somewhat larger version of the longsword, in this case. Forgot how interchangeable they are.

[Dan Howard]

[Matt J.]

@Dan Howard: Oddly enough, I heard it the other way around, that the base system was like that, and the Naked Dwarf rule (when hit without armour, you always take damage) was placed in to fix it. I don't really know much on the matter, though. GURPS does seem to do an excellent job of representing just about anything.



Before drawing up new statistics, actually, I'd like to make it clear as to how statistics for each weapon (category) should work. I'm going to write up some common weapons into points, pros and cons almost, and you can tell me if I'm still off-base.