[Sander Marechal]

Hi all. I am looking for evidence of haubergeons with half or three-quarter sleeves in the period 1100-1250.

The problem is this: I am planning two kits. One kit will be a knight hospitaliers kit somewhere between 1100-1250. Our group hasn't picked a date yet but this is where we are looking at for the moment. I also want a late 14th century kit because, well, they're just awesome And there's a lot of 14th century re-enactment going on in The Netherlands and Belgium.

I am not idependently wealthy (yet!) so I want to be able to re-use as many parts of kit as I can between these two.

I am thinking about getting a haubergeon with half or three-quarter sleeves that comes down to mid-thigh or slightly lower. Flat rings riveted with round/domed rivets. That should be fine for my 14th century kit under a coat-of-plates or a corrazina. I asked one of the more knowledgeable members of out Hospitaliers group if I could get away with such armour in the earlier Hospitaliers era and he thinks it's okay, but I am having trouble backing this up.

I went through the entire morgan bible looking for images of people with such haubergons. I have found five plates that show this. Three of them are archers but two show soldiers wielding a mace and spear of some sort.

Is there any more evidence about such haubergeons in the age of mail? Do you think I can get away with having one haubergeon for both kits? Riveted mail is expensive so I really want to buy just one. Also, if there is more evidence of shorter sleeves, what else did people wear in the age of mail? Leather vambraces or just a long-sleeved gambeson? And what did they use for hand protection?

Thanks in advance! Below are the plates I found in the Morgan bible.

[Stephen Curtin]

Hi Sander, first off I'll just say that I'm no expert on the subject but as far as I know the type of mail shirt your looking for should be fine for your period but I'm not sure you would find half or three quarter length sleeves on a knight hospitaller, perhaps you should try being a sergeant or squire (I know doesn't sound as glamorous as a knight).

As far as other protection for the lower arms goes, I think your only option here is a long sleeved aketon under your mail shirt, as there is no evidence for leather or any other arm protection at this time.

[Nathan Beal]

Sander

See if you can find a translation of the rule of the templars (J. M. Upton-Ward), i think this mentions the use of 'unsleeved' mail being given to sergeants, but don't have my copy to hand to check.

I would certainly believe this is a reasonable possibility, in fact the primary issue with such a shirt might be the fact that the coif is not integral with it, this really does seem to be the way this was arranged, a coif worn under the main shirt can look similar (and the surcoat can be constructed to help hide the layering). An additional though lesser consideration it is unsplit (as an aid to riding) as a split does still seem to be common practice into the 1200's. A surcoat will of course go a fair way to hiding this as well.

As to forearm protection i have always gone with a full sleeved aketon/gambeson/wambais underneath, if you are making this item yourself it is not difficult to increase the padding on the outer forearm (especially if layered) on your weapon side to help against rebated weapon hits (even working some leather in under the facing if you want).

HTH
N.

[Sander Marechal]

[Sander Marechal]

I found two more interesting effegies that apparently show knights with three-quarter sleeved hauberks.

This is Reginald, King of Man from 1229. He appears to be wearing some kind of gloves or gauntlets. Any idea what they are?

This is Geoffroi de Masviez from 1231. He has shorter sleeves and bare hands.

[Stephen Curtin]

Your right Sander that first effegy is interesting. It does seem to be some form of gauntlet but all I'll say about that is that it doesn't seem to be a common feature at this time. Orders like the Hospitallers and Templars had strict codes as to what they were allowed to wear both on and off the battlefield, so I don't see something like this gauntlet being issued as general issue, as I said above this does not seem to be a common feature at the time.

[Luka Borscak]

Wouldn't full sleeved hauberk be easier to justify in late 14th century kit than 3/4 sleeved hauberk in 12th or 13th century?

[Sander Marechal]

[Michael Zander]

Plenty of effigies from 1350-1400 show mail on the inside of the elbow, implying at least 3/4 sleeves that slip under the vambrace to some extent.

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Sam Gordon Campbell]

I agree with the above comments. A maille of such a length was being used from what I can recall, into the early 14th century, and slowly but surely being augmented with plates or perhaps even splinted armour and hardened leather.
And though the Mackjoskiiblarg Bible has lots of intergrated coifs, I've seen a few manuscript illuminations where it seems as though those who are not knights have a seperate coif with and odd square shape to them.
And methink these fellows are right when they say that, if push comes to shove, putting the coif under the haburgeon and then popping on a surcoat/tabard would be fine.
As for hand protection, I'd say either make a "double maille" mitten/muffler or somthing, or a really heavilt padded glove, or a sneaky gaunlet made to look like just a leather glove.
But yeah, I'm a fan of this period as well!

[Sander Marechal]

[Thom R.]

If you are handy with pliers and you wanted both styles you could make yourself sleeves with a mufflers of mail for the lower arms and hands that matches your hauberk and then get a small pile of matching butted rings, darkening if necessary, and stitch/unstitch the sleeves to/from the hauberk with the butted rings as needed. would take about 30 minutes each time to change it out. Thats what I do and not only does it pass the 10 foot rule, it passes the 1 foot rule. Most people can not tell the seam of butted rings from the riverted ones unless they are really examining it up close. but then again we argue about this a lot. I have a few seams of butted mail in places on my riveted hauberk in order to fit it to my body. some people think that is not OK for hysterical accuracy but I would counter that these loose prom-dress hauberks are not historical either. most of the illustrations that survive show that some effort was made to fit the mail especially on the arms and lower torso and if you wear and fight in mail for any length of time you'll realize the advantage of properly fitted armour whether mail or plate.

On pointing mail, are you asking about voiders or skirt? I don't point my hauberk, like I said I fit it and see no reason for pointing. I do use some narrow tie garters on my mail on my legs and sometimes on my wrist. tr

[Sander Marechal]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Thom R.]

Ah. You can point from the underlying arming garment through the mail to the spaulder but it is a pain to thread through, especially the shoulders which carry the brunt of the weight of the hauberk. brass or metal chapes on the end of the points help. the mail will cut and abrade the cord or leather. I used to do it that way but now for my transitional harness I have a coat of plates over mail and I point the shoulders to the COP. for my 15th c kit, I use voiders so the shoulders point to the gambeson. Note that the Churburg harness does not have upper arms. can't wait to see your kit!

[Sander Marechal]

[Sander Marechal]

[Thom R.]

You have a great plan. You're correct though in that wrapping a vambrace around mail is -------- probably not the most comfortable nor accurate thing for a late 14th c kit , yet for 13th c or earlier, a full hauberk is really necessary. so you have the quandary over sleeve length and how to make a flexible kit. the rapid changes in armour in the 14th c make it difficult to have a very flexible kit for multiple periods.

you can point shoulders through mail. it helps to have stiff chapes on the cord in order to poke through the mail and really helps if you have a squire available to do it for you honestly it can be a bit tricky to do it yourself if the mail is in any way close to historical in total weight. for the right shoulder you grab the mail with you right hand and haul it up while trying to get your left fingers in underneath and grab the points and poke them through. vice versa for other side.

you can tie latigo leather lace or hemp cord directly to the mail and use that to tie down the top of your shoulders. also some people strap their shoulders to a gorget too. then the whole assembly lays over the mail. I don't know if either method is period or not but I have seen both done a fair amount in the SCA. but in both cases, as Jean stated, those methods tend to result in a looser fit. tr

[Jean Thibodeau]