320 lb ballestrino in progress -- myArmoury.com

Leo Todeschini · Industry Professional

Hi All,

For years now I have been wanting to make a ballestrino and now is the time.

I love making crossbows and these particular type have fascinated me for a number of reasons and I could prattle on for hours...............

Ballestrinos were small, powerful crossbows commonly called 'assassins bows' that were popular in Italy and Spain in the 15th and 16th centuries. I am not quite sure what they were for and my particular opinion is that they were either executive toys or self defence weapons but personally don't believe they were for assassins as a trade group as such, although I guess they could have been used for this.

The bows are clearly very powerful, though with a short powerstroke they won't deliver what a full size bow would. This particular bow has been tested at 320lb at 44mm (1 3/4"). I have wondered how powerful they were and now I know, though this is perhaps not as powerful as some. There are very few of these bows existing and the only one I know vaguely near to me is one in RA at Leeds; all the ones I know about have very different trigger systems and are visually quite different. I think that there were not enough of them made to fall into standard patterns which explains the variety of styles. They all have a common layout in that they have a trigger block that slides forward and engages the string and then is drawn back using the inbuilt screw in the handle.

I have also wondered what they shoot. There is a lot of power in this bow, but the powerstroke is short, is it for playing or for defence?. In a nutshell I cannot make up my mind. The one in the RA has a groove so you can see the approximate diameter of the bolt and I estimate no more than 6mm. This bolt could be of normal construction but would weigh about 6 or 7 grams (1/4 oz) but as steel bows have a maximum return rate that is quite low the bolt would neither have much impact energy or velocity but an all steel bolt would have the impact energy and most of the velocity so that is where I am leaning at present. I don't know of any bolts for these in existance.

Most of these bows are extensively decorated, etched, gilded, inlayed etc but some were more utilitarian. The one at the RA is particularly utility. It looks like it was machined and the trigger block is stuck on top in a rather ugly manner and to top it all it looks just like an industrial micro switch, complete with a slot head screw, but some of the expensive ones simply had a wing nut to load them which is pretty crude too.

I have decided that this lack of standardisation and extant examples allows me a little freedom to make something I would like to make.

Any way the intro essay is now over but hopefully this will allow me to answer a few questions I have been wondering about.

The bow started life at 8mm thick this was just too much for me so I took it down to 6mm and it is 220mm nock to knock. The trigger priciple is the same as the one at the RA, but I reconfigured it so that it sits withing the bow body rather than above it which will make the appearance neater and less industrial and to my eyes less modern.

I have made the trigger mechanism and started the body and integrated the screw.

I hope it intrigues you as much as does me.

Tod

Craig Johnson · Industry Professional

Hey Tod

This is very cool. I have seen the one at lead but not any others that I recollect. As usual you are doing great stuff Happy

Craig

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

It's really funny to see you post this now, Tod, as I was almost going to contact you two weeks ago and ask if you had an interest on taking one on as a commission. I didn't want to bug you with more stuff, though, so I figured I'd wait. Wink

Needless to say, I'm very interested to see more.

Addison C. de Lisle · Posted: Fri 05 Mar, 2010 4:56 pm Post subject:

I love seeing the in-progress mechanism; I can't wait to see more!

Danny Grigg · Posted: Fri 05 Mar, 2010 8:06 pm Post subject:

Todd, great looking Balestrino, I can't wait to see it fully constructed.

Are you going to make some steel bolts as well?

Any idea of the range of these bows?

Any idea how lethal they are? Are there any period documentation about them being used to kill / assassin?

Here are some examples of Balestrinos / Ballestrinos from the web:

Christies
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_detail...c8cee01523

Hermann Historica
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm57...at57_a.txt
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm50...b=A-50.txt

Czerny's via Live Auctioneers website
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6179435

Armeria Reale Museum, Turin Italy
http://www.artito.arti.beniculturali.it/Armer...re.asp?L=L

Click on the L10 & L12 on the page above
L 10 BALESTRINO APPARTENUTO A UN PRINCIPE DI CASA SAVOIA, ITALIA SETTENTRIONALE (FINE DEL XVII SECOLO O XVIII SECOLO)
L 12 BALESTRINO A VITE

The following 2 images are links from a polish forum (3rd link below). I don't know if these are replicas or authentic examples...
http://img86.imageshack.us/i/balestrinolewa.jpg/
http://img22.exs.cx/img22/9656/bal1.jpg

http://34all.org/forum_pokaz_watek.php?board=...archiwum=4

The following Russian site (I think its Russian) shows pics of most of the Balestrino's above plus the one from Leeds (Royal Armouries that Todd mentioned).
The Royal Armouries Balestrino is towards the bottom.
When you translate the page using google its title is "That late arbaletik from Leeds"
http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=22117

The attached pictures are from the book "A Guide to the Crossbow by W.F. Patterson", pages 105 to 107 that deal with the Balestrino (miniature crossbows).
I hope they are pasted in order.

Pic 1 - Starts with heading Miniature crossbows and text
Pic 2 - Pic of Balestrino from the Doges Palace
Pic 3 - Text, starts with "However, this prince...."
Pic 4 - Fig. 31 illustration and text
Pic 5 - Text, starts with "In the city...."

For more information about Balestrinos:

In the Bibliography section of the book "European Crossbows: A Survey by Josepf Alm" (Royal Armouries):

An Assassin's Crossbow
Journel of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries 15

The Assassin's Crossbow
Journel of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries 17

The Pistol Crossbow
Journel of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries 20

The Assassin's Crossbow
Journel of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries 39

I think all of the articles relate to the Balestrino type crossbow. According to the Bibliography they are all illustrated.

Now if only I could track now the above articles / journels....

Danny

Leo Todeschini · Industry Professional

Thanks for the interest and I must say I am looking forward to how this develops and thanks for the research Danny.

I have come accross all but one of the original bows (the Polish one is a repro) but interestingly the one I have not seen is the one with the steel string. I have wondered what the strings were as it has to be thin but the power is very high for a string of this thickness and I did wonder if the strings were steel and one at least was. I have done a little string research for longbows with Steve Stratton. He knows a great deal and has researched a great deal and unfortunately my input did not really take his work any further, but it did lead me to think that these strings could not be hemp so I thought perhaps silk or failing that steel. I have opted to cheat on this bow and have used a linen serving but a modern bow string fibre for the body. In essence at the moment I am more interested in the bow than the string and so am going for that aspect.

Danny Grigg wrote

Jean Henri Chandler · Posted: Sat 06 Mar, 2010 2:04 pm Post subject:

This is a great thread, I've learned a lot about these weapons here and have always been wanting to find out more about them.

Would love to see the results of some test-shooting.

J

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Sat 06 Mar, 2010 8:36 pm Post subject:

Leo Todeschini · Industry Professional

Jean Thibodeau wrote

A. Kotlyarevsky · Posted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 4:30 pm Post subject:

So, not to throw around my degree or anything, but I am a Physicist, and the equations that govern this sort of thing are not THAT complicated. If you were willing to give me some data (to be determined), I would be happy to crunch the numbers.

I think it would be kind of fun to do this calculation.

Leo Todeschini · Industry Professional

The next stage and it is getting close.

The trigger block is complete and fitted into the stock, the retaining block is fitted and complete and based on the one in Leeds, as is the bolt guide.

I have made the whole item 'field strippable' for safety and fun and to this end you may notice the hole in the side of the stock. All of the pins for the trigger mechanism are retained by the stock so when the trigger block is removed the trigger parts will be removeable. To remove the trigger block the bow has to be removed by tapping out the pins and the trigger block screwed fully forward, at this point the pin holding the block to the screw can be tapped through the hole in stock and the block will drop out.

Obviously I have had a play shooting it, though not at full draw yet. I put in a 5mm diameter solid steel bar about 100mm/4" long and this of course tumbled so can only be used at very short range which makes me think a dagger would be a better bet. I tried putting copper flights on a solid 5mm bar, which had awful balance, tumbled and then got lost somewhere - so no pictures of that.

I think I am actually moving back toward a small but conventional bolt with a steel tip, wooden shaft and wooden flights; time will tell.

A. Kotlyarevsky wrote

Timo Nieminen · Posted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 5:47 pm Post subject:

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 8:23 pm Post subject:

Maybe video tape the prod ( drie fired or fired with a know mass ) and if you have time code you can count the number of frames from release to end of string motion.

Each frame of tape ( or digital recording frame ) should be 1/30 of a second.

This should work if the total time is more than 1/30 of a second with the standard frame rate of video recording.

For more precision or if the time is much shorter than 1/30 of a second a camera capable of a higher frame rate and shooting in slow motion there could be many more frames per second than 30.

Anyway string speed should be obtainable from length of draw versus time from release to the end of sting motion.

Or some sort of timing device triggered at the same time as the release and stopped at end of motion. Wink

Timo Nieminen · Posted: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 9:04 pm Post subject:

Easy enough, given a high-speed camera. With an efficiency comparable to a bow, this could put that bolt out at approx. 60m/s. 2 metres between frames at NTSC frame rates, which is why you need a high speed camera. For "uniform" behaviour of the bow while shooting, it would be enough to know the time, but this might still be hard to get accurately enough with a camera. There are other high-tech solutions, such as a couple of photodetectors or such. But we can also get this from a measurement of the speed at which the bolt leaves the bow at, and the traditional method for this - already suggested, a ballistic pendulum - will work well.

But this still doesn't answer questions such as the aerodynamics and stability of the bolts, penetration for different targets at different ranges, so to really find out the answer, it'll come down to shooting at things. All in the name of science, of course, so any enjoyment will be purely coincidental.

Leo Todeschini · Industry Professional

At last,

So here it is all cleaned up and ready for the TORM (most important show of my year).

I fiddled with bolts for a while and settled on perhaps the most obvious direction and one I had not thought of at first. The first half of the bolt or so is solid steel, the rest is holly (dense and tough) this gives a standard balance of a about one thrid from the front and as much weight as works for this size bolt, still allowing it to fly. The result is that the bolt shoots cleanly and has some punch. It penetrates a standard straw target boss (oldish one) to about 1.5"/35mm. To me this means it will be fun to play with and could be fatal if it hit your belly or eye or parts of your neck, but otherwise not unless the bolt was poisoned; anyway not reliably so. From this I would conclude that the name 'Assassins bow' is probably a misnomer. That said, I would not want to be shot by it.

If I get a chance I will try a shot at a leg of lamb or something to get some idea of penetration into flesh.

As the bow is easily strippable, I made a hammer and drift to go with the bow and the stripped down picture shows both the hammer (drift screws in the handle) and a bolt.

It has been interesting to make and to use and will unfortunately and hopefully find a new home this weekend. but for me it has answered a few questions, confirmed some beliefs and added another couple of mysteries.

I hope you have enjoyed seeing its progress.

Tod

David Lohnes · Posted: Mon 15 Mar, 2010 2:04 pm Post subject:

Dang money!
That's sweeeeeeeet action!

I've followed this thread more out of curiosity than anything, but seeing the finished product in all it's shiny, corkscrewy glory, I'm mesmerized.

Simply lovely.

Tim Hall · Posted: Mon 15 Mar, 2010 2:26 pm Post subject:

Do we get to see it in action? Happy

Luke Zechman · Posted: Mon 15 Mar, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject:

WOW!!!! I am not very familiar with crossbows. That is a very awesome design on the firing mechanism. I like how it would be easily reset from the top of the exterior. Would the trigger be actuated with the thumb? I feel like this weapon is designed more for close quarters fire, with the bolt ramp being angled upward. Very beautiful weapon! Congratulations!

After having looked at it closer in the picture, I am not so sure now that the bolt would be angled upward...

Reinier van Noort · Posted: Mon 15 Mar, 2010 11:45 pm Post subject:

That really is a fantastic toy! Thanks for showing it in such detail! Great stuff.

If I ever strike rich, that would be my office toy of choice! Eek!

Danny Grigg · Posted: Tue 16 Mar, 2010 3:49 am Post subject:

Tod

Great looking bow, any chance you can post a pic of the bow cocked with a bolt in the groove ready to shoot?

Do you have final dimensions and weight on the bow and bolt?

How firmly does the bolt sit in the groove? For example does the bolt dislodge / fall out if you are running with the crossbow cocked?

Thanks

Danny