Where are the simple rapiers? -- myArmoury.com

Sean Flynt · Posted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 10:54 am Post subject: Where are the simple rapiers?

Where are all of the simple-hilt "rapiers" of the type shown in Saviolo and DiGrassi? They must have been common, but I can't find surviving examples anywhere (and I haven't seen any in painting of the period). Were they re-hilted as the fashion changed? I assume there are some in Italian museum collections, but I haven't found any Italian collections online. Any help is appreciated. One of the men below has two. I just want one. Big Grin

Werner Stiegler · Posted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 11:05 am Post subject:

You mean these? There are enough of those around, honestly. I got those here from herman historica.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 11:13 am Post subject:

Nope. Even simpler than those. Just a horizontally re-curved cross and globular pommel.

Jim Mearkle · Posted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 11:46 am Post subject:

Fingering the quillon without a complex guard, as shown in the latter two pictures, is a good way to lose a finger.

I suspect they were shown that way to show hand position more clearly.

Or maybe it was a cost saving measure, just to make the etchings easier and less expensive. Printing an illustrated book must not have been cheap. Both Mair and Meyer got into financial difficulties as a result of their books.

Glennan Carnie · Posted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 11:49 am Post subject:

I've been looking too, with little success.

I know a sword (not necessarily a rapier) with a turned-down hilt and spherical pommel was found in an encrustation aboard the Mary Rose (1545); as was an early basket hilt. So such swords were found in England in the mid-sixteenth century.

There are also swords that match this type to be seen (if you look really, really closely) in the engravings from Cowdrey house.

It's possible that the well-known image of George Silver (demonstrating the correct length for a sword) is holding such a rapier (this time with a fore guard)

However, to date I've yet to find a real example of such a sword.

I was just lamenting this the other day: swords of the first quarter 16th century seem to be largely ignored by the community.

EDIT:

Some images from the MR, taken yesterday:

The most precisely-dated basket hilt sword (can be dated to exactly 19th July 1545!):
Photobucket image

The 'impression' of a simple rapier (the iron remnants disintegrated as they tried to recover it):
Photobucket image

A curved-hilted sword discovered when X-raying an excrustation. You can just about make up the 'ghost' of a sword in the image. (sorry about the poor quality - my wife took the photo and was actually focussing on the scabbard in the case not the images in the background!)
Photobucket image

Sean Flynt · Posted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 12:06 pm Post subject:

Maybe I'll just make one and see what happens. Laughing Out Loud

Werner Stiegler · Posted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 12:11 pm Post subject:

Hmm, this one's close, I suppose. It was dug out in Germany .

Sean Flynt · Posted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 12:19 pm Post subject:

That's not it, either, but it is VERY interesting, Werner! Is it from Hermann Historica, too? Details!

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

Already shared this with you in PM and it's an "almost". Let's put it here for others to see, too.

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1652.html
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1650.html
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1651.html

Sean Flynt · Posted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 12:35 pm Post subject:

It's the closest thing I've seen to what's illustrated in those documents, though this one has a flattened pommel and some illustrated examples appear to have massive globular pommels.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 12:58 pm Post subject:

Ah, I see that the German sword is from Hermann Historica:

Lot Nr.3671

A German sword,

circa 1600. Double-edged blade with a somewhat shortened point, and fullered for half its length on both sides. Iron hilt with two ring guards and S-shaped quillons. The bent tang with vase-shaped pommel and remains of the original wooden grip. Well preserved archaeological find with heavy traces of corrosion at the point. Length 109 cm [42.9"].

Looks to me like the grip core is spirally carved for a wire wrap. Very interesting....

Werner Stiegler · Posted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 1:00 pm Post subject:

Sean Flynt · Posted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 1:06 pm Post subject:

That little sword is ca. 1500, but it's a distinctly Italian type and certainly might be an ancestor of the later 16th type I'm looking for.

GG Osborne · Posted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 3:35 pm Post subject:

After having been lately reprimanded by Nathan Big Grin

, I hesitate to mention this, Sean. It's not exactly what you are looking for but, again, close I think. Look on a certain ubitquitous website that allows people to bid on things, sort under Militaria and highest first. There is a new listing for a fairly simple rapier on the first page that pops-up. Nice decorations but fairly straightforward geometry.

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin