[Angus Trim]

Sharpness on swords is a subject that is much debated, and has recently been debated on this site and on another site.

MY view on sharpness for swords is it should vary from sword type to sword type {depending on blade mass and sword mission}, be able to do what a sword's edge should do, and be relatively durable, ie should cut quite a bit before being sharpened again, though not necessarily being able to deal with lots of abuse.

A greatsword should have really durable edges. Surviving contact with "armor" should likely have a higher priority than cutting soft targets.

On the other hand, a bastard sword, a longsword, or a riding sword meant for period self defense/ dueling should have an edge quite capable of dealing with lighter targets.......

"Razor" sharp is a meaningless term. As I've seen it applied to swords it can mean anything from "stupid" sharp, to relatively blunt {one major catalog vendor used to use "razor" sharp to describe the secondary bevel they applied to their swords, secondary bevel having an included angle of 60 degrees}.

"Stupid" sharp is so sharp that the edge is actually dangerous. The edge is a very good cutting edge, but is not sustainable and will need lots of maintenance.......

"Paper" sharp is still real sharp, sharp enough to do everything "Stupid" sharp will do when the sword is used as a sword, but will also cut paper, the paper dragged across the edge......

"Sword" sharp won't cut paper reliably the way "Paper" sharp will. However, "Sword" sharp will do everything that paper sharp will cutting, and is far more sustainable.

Last nite after Restita DeJesus broke Dave Stokes record on the 2L bottles, we set up several 2L bottles on the table. The AT1593 cut 7 of them easily and cleanly. The edges of the sword are not "paper" sharp, but they are plenty sharp for a sword, and they won't need much maintenance as long as they aren't abused.

I recently read a thread where one of our foremost swordsmiths said that fingering an edge will dull it. I was a little stunned at that at the time, but later concluded it has to do with the type of edge applied to the sword. I suppose its possible that "stupid" sharp, and "paper" sharp could be easily damaged that way with one's acids and / or oils.

However, "sword" sharp doesn't seem that vulnerable to fingering, or even to a certain amount of corrosion. My judgement is testing the sharpness with a finger will not hurt the edge as long as the sword is cleaned off and oiled reasonably soon afterwards...

I recently patina'd a blade, that was sword sharp. It is still sword sharp, even with the patina........

Sword sharp..... sharp enough for the sword to do its mission, and sustainable enough that it won't need an overabundance of maintenance.......

[Alexi Goranov]

Nicely said.

I think that pretty much summarizes much of what has been said on few threads that I have seen or started.

Taking what you have just said in to account, one can decide (based on one's subjective judgement) how sharp to get their sword.

Alexi

[Cor Böhms]

Dear Angus,

How do you apply patina on a blade ?

Best, Cor

[Patrick Kelly]

I saw this post over at SFI and asked Gus to place it here as well. Since we've had several threads recently on sword sharpness I thought that it would be of interest. I think Gus has brought up a very important point.

Back in the early days of these on-line fora we fielded a lot of questions like "What is the best sword?", "Who would win, swordsman A or swordsman B?" and etc. In time I think it became a readily accepted fact that, for instance, there was no "best" sword. Swords are made to fulfill a specific mission. Consequently, different swords for different tasks.

In the same vein we can't really ask "How sharp should a sword be?" and expect to get a definitive answer. Like different swords, different edge geometries are required to do different things, and against different targets. Those different edge geometries, or "sharpnesses" if you will, can often be found on the very same blade.

So in order to determine if a sword is "sharp enough" we first have to set parameters. In what context are we judging the sharpness? An historical on modern context? (not always the same thing). What kind of targets, if any, will the edge encounter?

The more we study the sword the more we realize just what a complex tool it is. There are seldom black and white answers. At least few ones that can be answered in twenty words or less

[Glen A Cleeton]

Oh man,

This brings to mind more than one parable. I generally repsect a tools design unless it needs to be modified to meet my expectations.

Different tools, different expectations. As a teen, I was encamped in a very rural prep school were I had proved my woodmanship the first year. I was the approved wielder of the double bit axe belonging to the school. I never more than maintained that edge (it wasn't mine after all).

The second year I showed up with a brand new Plumb™ single bit that I bought literally on the way from the bus stop to the school. Later that day found me with a file, slimming down the blade, just a touch, to make it a slightly better chopper. Didn't touch the edge, that wasn't what I was after.

One of the local boys cmae up with his own double bit later that year (passed down through his family) and proceeded to work that sucker down to the poit where it could have won any cutting competition in soft pine, all the while chiding me and prompting others about me and my obtuse edges.

A week later, he looked like his pet dog had died. It was often well below zero when we were woodsing and he had encountered a very frozen knot in something he had thought soft. A dime size chunk had come out of one of his edges ;)

I left that school a couple of years later with my PLumb™ and left the schools double bit behind, just as I had found it. Thirty four years later, I still have my axe and it's no worse for wear except that my dad borrowed it and broke the handle. Ironically I had started with an axe of his ten years before I had my own.

Moral of the story? Leave well enough alone unless you think you know better than the one who made the tool or need to change something to suit your need. That fellow at school may still have his notched axe too and I hope he learned a lesson.

A second parallel type of analogy.
Back when folk started racing Austin Healy Sprites, the factory put out a great book about prepping a car for racing. The very first paragraph was emphatic about starting out to bring the vehicle back to stock specifications.

Edges subjective? Yes and no
We do need to think of what the tool was meant to do. The maker probably has a good idea of what he specs his pieces to.

Am I rambling or what ?8•)

Cheers

GC

[Peter Johnsson]

Hey Gus, this is a splendid posting.
I am happy to see you advocate the fact there are different types of edges on different swords and that not one edge type is "the best" for all swords. That is something I have been trying to get across on the forums for quite a while now.
I guess it takes someone like you to demystify that fact.

The effect of this is that there is no single cutting test that will decide what is "the best" sword. You need to judge each sword in view of its intended use or function.
This is also something that needs to be recognized more widely.
Cutting tests are great fun to do.
It is always possible to make swords that are specialized for that kind of exercise.
These can be fine swords, but they do not show the amount of variation you see on authentic historical swords.

It seems we actually agree here, Gus

I am just a bit stunned that you do not aknowledge the fact that an edge on a carbon steel blade will worse for wear after fingereing it for a while.
An acuter edge is obviously more sensitive than a more obtuse one, but all sharp edges will be affected. The very sharpness if any edge is quite thin. If you want to keep that absolutely pristine, you better avoid "cuddling" it too much. If you read my post again you might see that that was what I was saying.
Some acids bite in a way that actually makes an edge sharper, or more acute. The "acid" we have in our fingerprints sadly does not act in this way...*g*
...At least not my fingerprints, I do not know about yours? *g*

To every one who might be concerned: no swordsmiths were harmed during the writing of this message.
If this post comes across as ironic, please just write it of as my swedish sense of humor... *g*

These are ideas and facts that seems to need continuos attention.
Thanks for your efforts to clearify, Gus!

[Alexi Goranov]

[Angus Trim]

[Scott H.]

Boy, I seemed to have opened quite a can of worms on this one...

My initial question about people fingering the edge spun into a lot of different threads it seems. But I think I need to ask again because I'm still a bit curious (and dense maybe).

I understand that if I leave oils from blade being handled that it will erode, given time. But what about the fingering itself? I wonder if one used a leather strop at the wrong angle against the edge (say, perpendicular) wouldn't that dull it? And isn't our skin basically leather too? I ask this because, it seems to me at least, that there is a loss in keeness after running a finger along the edge.

I'm sorry to keep this going, but I figure that's what this forum is all about. I also hope there's a website or something out there that shows exactly how to sharpen a blade, because I am terrified of ruining the magnificent work I'm now in possession of.

Thank you all for your patience, understanding, and generous knowledge.

Scott

[Jean Thibodeau]

Angus;

Was just about to comment on fingering the edge when your last post cut me off at the pass!

I tend to agree that if you wipe the edge immediatly the damage to the edge will be theoretical. (Finger it once not a few thousand times every time you pick it up.)

I seem to be lucky in not creating rust on steel, I do have a friend who takes the gun blue of a firearm if it is not wiped of right away!

I'm sure that "Stupid Sharp" is not desirable when using halfswording techniques!

I would guess that against lightly armored or un- armored opponents "paper Sharp" might have the minor advantage that an opponent would have less success grabbing your blade. Also after a bit of use and cleaning a "Paper Sharp" edge becomes a "Sword Edge" (Assuming that the edge geometry is optimised for a sword edge.) that could be left that way until it needed maintainance after heavy use.

Although at this point the discussion can turn into how many angels can dance on the point of a pin.

Again, Angus & Peter thank for your imputs: Very instructive and enjoyable.

[Patrick Kelly]

[Angus Trim]

[Michael A.]

Hi Gus,

Out of curiosity, may I ask which longsword encountered the maille? Anything made for/dealing with German longsword pretty much instantly peaks my interest...

Great discussion on sword sharpness so far, I don't have much to add except this: The required edge for a sword will also depend on what it's being used against. Sorry if that already been said and I missed it, but the way I see it, that's pretty much what it comes down to. Story time: I own two Atrims, a 1531 and a 1319, and one afternoon after cutting bottles at a friend's house, got stupid with them. I tried to show one of my friends several of the forms involved in German longsword. We both moved in slower than slow motion, and neither of was in any danger of getting hurt, but the two swords did slide against one another and meet edge-to-edge a few times. To pay for my stupidity, each edge now has several miniscule nicks and burrs in it that weren't there before. In hindsight, I should have expected that, and kept them as far apart from one another as possible, but what's done is done. A sharp edge meeting a sharp edge, even in brief gentle contact, will nick. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It's going to happen. However, I've seen the 1531 bounce off a pine railing in a pooched cut with no noticable effect to the blade at all. A couple of minor scratches on the finish, but the edge held. So again, it comes down to what the sword was made to be used against... granted, none of us are going to be using sharps against one another... but I'd still rather see "sword sharp" in my blades than "stupid sharp" or "paper sharp". "Sword sharp" works perfectly well against pretty much anything that I'll ever use the sword against(bottles, tatami, et).


Best,
Michael

[Scott Bubar]

For some reason, I keep hearing Bjorn's description of that 1000+ year old Norse sword that was still sharp enought to cut paper.

[Joe Fults]

I'm gradually learning that once you get to sharp enough, technique makes a much bigger difference. I'm able to cut fairly well with a pretty wide range of blades, on the occasions that I get my footwork right. Unfortunately those cases tend to be the exception right now. However, I know it when I hit it.