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Rod Paavola
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 Posted: Wed 13 Jan, 2010 5:27 pm Post subject: Medieval Dagger Origins?? |
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this dagger was given to me 10 years ago. i dont know anything about it and been searching for it's historical roots. if anyone can give any insight, i would greatly appreciate it 
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Nikodem Czechowski
Location: Torun, PL Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 1:32 am Post subject: |
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I am quite sure this is not medieval. It's rather XIX/XX century.
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A. Spanjer
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| Posted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 6:48 am Post subject: |
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I agree, it's probably 20th century, could be late 19th.
What's the hilt made out of?
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Frances Perry
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I'd agree with the above, though it puts me in mind of trench-art that I've seen before - my mother collects a whole range of items, some which were crafted by those actually in the trenches to send to sweethearts, to pass the time, for good luck charms, and others sold as trinkets after the event or to take home.
Have a look at the pen-knives for example on this page:
http://www.trenchartofww1.co.uk/3.html?frm_da...type=large
particularly the one in the top left here:
http://www.trenchartofww1.co.uk/3.html?frm_da...type=large
It's just a guess though. 
“In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use.”
- Achille Marozzo, 1536
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Rod Paavola
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| Posted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| A. Spanjer wrote: | I agree, it's probably 20th century, could be late 19th.
What's the hilt made out of? |
believe the handle is made of either steel or iron.
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Rod Paavola
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| Posted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Frances Perry wrote: | Yes, I'd agree with the above, though it puts me in mind of trench-art that I've seen before - my mother collects a whole range of items, some which were crafted by those actually in the trenches to send to sweethearts, to pass the time, for good luck charms, and others sold as trinkets after the event or to take home.
Have a look at the pen-knives for example on this page:
http://www.trenchartofww1.co.uk/3.html?frm_da...type=large
particularly the one in the top left here:
http://www.trenchartofww1.co.uk/3.html?frm_da...type=large
It's just a guess though. |
the particular photo you mentioned looks similar. appears this antique is a WWI trench made letter opener. Thank you for the great feedback! Do they have any monetary value? Is it a marketable item?
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Ken Speed
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| Posted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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I'll admit that I don't know what it is but I think the blade looks too finely finished for it to be trench made. I, too, would like to know what the hilt is made from and if the hilt was burned. The iron cross symbol on the blade makes me think it may have been a ceremonial dagger or something. Also, how big is it, does it have the cross section of a letter opened or a dagger?
Nice little mystery!
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Rod Paavola
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| Posted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Ken Speed wrote: | I'll admit that I don't know what it is but I think the blade looks too finely finished for it to be trench made. I, too, would like to know what the hilt is made from and if the hilt was burned. The iron cross symbol on the blade makes me think it may have been a ceremonial dagger or something. Also, how big is it, does it have the cross section of a letter opened or a dagger?
Nice little mystery! |
the knife is 6 inches long. at a local shop the owner mentioned the hilt may have been shrink wrapped with leather originally. he said the hilt was made from metal. i originally thought the hilt was rock. the local shop owner said metal cause he believed it to be extremely aged with a long period of time changing the color of the hilt. how were ceremonial daggers used? what do you mean does it have the cross section of a letter opened or a dagger?
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A. Spanjer
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| Posted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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The cross-section of a blade is what you would see if you looke straight down the blade.
You could post a photo looking straight down the blade.
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Ken Speed
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| Posted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Rod,
You wrote, "the knife is 6 inches long." The overall length is 6" or the blade length is 6"? If the length of the whole thing is only 6" then I'd guess we're looking at a souvenir or letter opener. On the other hand if the blade is 6" long then I'd opt for some sort of decorative or ceremonial dagger.
"at a local shop the owner mentioned the hilt may have been shrink wrapped with leather originally. he said the hilt was made from metal. i originally thought the hilt was rock." Man, your guess is as good as mine, I've never seen anything like that handle! If I had to hazard a guess I'd say it was something flammable that had been partially burned but I'm just going on what it looks like in the photo. Does anybody know if bakelite burns?
" how were ceremonial daggers used?"I wasn't alluding to blood sacrifices or anything like that. At one time there were an uncounted number of fraternal organizations, like the Elks for instance. Some were national or ethnic, German Turnvereins are an example. A dagger could be a symbol of membership or office or grade or something like that.
"what do you mean does it have the cross section of a letter opened or a dagger?" Rod, I'm not sure I can describe the difference to you in a succinct fashion. Look at a letter opener and a knife and you'll see that while there are similarities, they're essentially different. A letter opened will probably have a slightly convex cross section coming to a not very sharp but smooth edge, knives generally are not convex but have a straight taper that leads fairly acutely to a sharp edge.
I want to thank you for presenting us with such an engaging puzzle, I suspect we aren't going to solve this one.
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Frances Perry
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Rod Paavola wrote: | | Ken Speed wrote: | I'll admit that I don't know what it is but I think the blade looks too finely finished for it to be trench made. I, too, would like to know what the hilt is made from and if the hilt was burned. The iron cross symbol on the blade makes me think it may have been a ceremonial dagger or something. Also, how big is it, does it have the cross section of a letter opened or a dagger?
Nice little mystery! |
the knife is 6 inches long. at a local shop the owner mentioned the hilt may have been shrink wrapped with leather originally. he said the hilt was made from metal. i originally thought the hilt was rock. the local shop owner said metal cause he believed it to be extremely aged with a long period of time changing the color of the hilt. how were ceremonial daggers used? what do you mean does it have the cross section of a letter opened or a dagger? |
Hmmm... Not sure about a ceremonial knife due to the curve of the quillons. Could this be emulating something someone has seen? My feeling is that the handle is the 'significant' part of the knife, i.e. it is the part that the person making the knife wanted to keep. Perhaps a piece of shrapnel that almost killed them and they kept it as a momento in the form of a dagger. It's just weird that the handle is so strangely 'damaged' and yet the blade and hilt are somewhat cleaner and undamaged.
“In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use.”
- Achille Marozzo, 1536
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Rod Paavola
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| Posted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Ken Speed wrote: | Hi Rod,
You wrote, "the knife is 6 inches long." The overall length is 6" or the blade length is 6"? If the length of the whole thing is only 6" then I'd guess we're looking at a souvenir or letter opener. On the other hand if the blade is 6" long then I'd opt for some sort of decorative or ceremonial dagger.
"at a local shop the owner mentioned the hilt may have been shrink wrapped with leather originally. he said the hilt was made from metal. i originally thought the hilt was rock." Man, your guess is as good as mine, I've never seen anything like that handle! If I had to hazard a guess I'd say it was something flammable that had been partially burned but I'm just going on what it looks like in the photo. Does anybody know if bakelite burns?
" how were ceremonial daggers used?"I wasn't alluding to blood sacrifices or anything like that. At one time there were an uncounted number of fraternal organizations, like the Elks for instance. Some were national or ethnic, German Turnvereins are an example. A dagger could be a symbol of membership or office or grade or something like that.
"what do you mean does it have the cross section of a letter opened or a dagger?" Rod, I'm not sure I can describe the difference to you in a succinct fashion. Look at a letter opener and a knife and you'll see that while there are similarities, they're essentially different. A letter opened will probably have a slightly convex cross section coming to a not very sharp but smooth edge, knives generally are not convex but have a straight taper that leads fairly acutely to a sharp edge.
I want to thank you for presenting us with such an engaging puzzle, I suspect we aren't going to solve this one. |
the whole length of the entire piece is about 7.5 inches. the hilt appears to be potentially scrap metal. maybe off a tank which was exploded and caught on fire. could be a piece of tank armor plating. the edges of a modern letter opener are dull while the edges of this knife come to a small tight edge but not bloody sharp. my guess is the guard is made from a spent brass shell casing.
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 7:16 am Post subject: |
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I'm saying trench art ( some of which as well as POW camp art was of excellent quality ). The handle is i'm 'thinking a chunk of shrapnel, the quillons appear to be made from the firing band of an artillery shell ( I used to have a German trench art bracelet from WWI made from a firing band that looks like pretty much the exact same thing ) and the blade is made in mimic of the letter opener ( I used to own several of variations of the one Frances pointed out in her mothers collection with the iron cross motif ), the maker perhaps having seen one while spending time back from the front lines. Scrap metal was literally everywhere on the western front and the volume of trench art produced was prodigous and often ingenius. The dagger would be German is my guess based on the firing band quillons and blad decoration.
Frances, your mother has a wonderfull collection! In the past I collected everything to do with WWI ( and WWII and ACW ect. ) and had a large collection of trench art letter openers, you moms is a nice a grouping as i've ever seen.
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Frances Perry
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Allan Senefelder wrote: |
Frances, your mother has a wonderfull collection! In the past I collected everything to do with WWI ( and WWII and ACW ect. ) and had a large collection of trench art letter openers, you moms is a nice a grouping as i've ever seen. |
Hello Allan, Sorry if I mislead you, but the link was to a site I found with examples of Trench Art to exemplify what I meant. Unfortunately, none of these gallery pictures are owned by my mother. Her collection is not pictured on a website.
She does have an extensive collection of a variety of trench art, though. She is a collector of many things!
Perhaps an email to one of the Trench Art specialist websites might help you - all Trench Art is unique, so the best you can hope for is something of a similar nature. A little sad that the story of the dagger has been lost (if it is what we suspect it is)...
A very interesting thread!
“In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use.”
- Achille Marozzo, 1536
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Paul Mullins
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| Posted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Its a trench art dagger from the first WW1. The handle appears to be made from a shell splinter (shrapnel). These were made as souviniers for troops headed home.
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