[Ruel A. Macaraeg]

Friends,
We know from surviving examples (eg. in the Metropolitan Museum of Art) that 16thc. northern Italians made large two-handed swords similar to those of contemporary Germans. Some of us will be familiar with the two reproduced by Del Tin Armi Antiche:

http://deltin.it/2162.htm
http://deltin.it/5167.htm

However, I don't believe I've ever seen discussed the appearance of the Italian swordsmen who used these swords. Did they look like German Landesknecht swordsmen (Doppelsoldner)? I ask now, after having seen these two Italian paintings in the National Gallery of Art in Washington, DC.

http://forensicfashion.com/1525GermanInfantryContextPeriod.html

Do these images depict native Italians, or Germans in Italy during the Italian Wars? Any help settling this question would be appreciated.

Thanks, ruel

[Craig Shira]

.

From what I have gathered, there was no such thing as "Italian" back then. There was Florentine, Venetian, Roman, but there was no Italy. Pretty much modern-day northern Italy was part of the Holy Roman Empire (Germany) until around World War One .

Because these areas were in fluctuation, the "Italians" looked like the "Germans" who looked like the Swiss. And these styles were copied by the English. During the 1500s, the "Landsknecht" style was popular all over and was not isolated to just the Germanic peoples. One of the few ways to distinguish Swiss from German is that the Swiss had a cross of St. George (looks like a plus sign + ) and the Germans had a cross of St. Andrew (looks like an x ). The Italian peoples had their own regional styles too, I'm sure, but it's difficult to distinguish.

Similarly, two handed weapons with parrying hooks or lugs above the ricasso would be used across cultures as they all influenced each other.

Trying to attach modern ideas of nationality to a time when those ideas didn't exist can get tricky.

.

[M. Eversberg II]

And the lack of them can be confusing at times

Perhaps the originals were manufactured for the export market? People lust for Italian cars now, and Italian armor at at least one point in the middle ages.

M.

[Bill Grandy]

You may want to look into Achilles Marozzo's work on fencing (there are two editions that were published in the 16th century). There is a section on the two handed sword. The Order of the Seven Hearts has a nice PDF that shows all of the guards, and the illustrations may give at least some idea of the clothing:

http://www.salvatorfabris.com/SpadoneGuardie.pdf

[Ruel A. Macaraeg]

Thanks friends! Bill, those Marozzo illustrations are especially helpful, and do look very similar to the figures in the NGA's Italian paintings. I don't normally associate Marozzo with large two-handed swords, so didn't think to look there. The sword he illustrates looks remarkably similar in shape and proportion to an example in the Metropolitan Museum of Art's Stone Gallery of Arms and Armor, and to the DT5167 .

[Maurizio D'Angelo]

some clarification on the unification of Italy - 1861
here a picture: Giovanni da Pordenone - 1521 - Verona
Ciao
Maurizio

[Maurizio D'Angelo]

perhaps one that has inspired Mr. Del Tin
northern Italy - Veneto - 1520

[Diviccaro Roberto]

Please!!! see better

http://www.wga.hu/art/p/pordenon/golgothb.jpg

Author: Giovanni Antonio Pordenone
title: Crucifixion or Golgotha
1520 Cremona (Italy) Cathedral

bye

[Bill Grandy]

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hey Bill,

Do we know how late these were used in duels, and where?

Cheers,

Christian

[Bill Grandy]

[Maurizio D'Angelo]

[Ruel A. Macaraeg]

Bill Grandy wrote:

[Maurizio D'Angelo]

Probably the name "bravo" comes from the Latin "pravus" which means "bad, evil"
The "bravo": men in the service of noble or powerful for which executing orders, even if against the law (1500-1600). Alessandro Manzoni mentions in his famous history book "I Promessi Sposi" as they were dressed.
The author of "I Promessi Sposi" environment of affairs in society Lombard 1600, during the period of Spanish domination. Were widespread throughout northern Italy.

"Are identifiable by clothing and a tuft of hair that protrudes from a hairnet that surrounds the rest of the hair. Wore a green hairnet, hair ending in a tassel, and his face was half covered by a tuft, to hide the scars...
A glossy leather belt, a knife handle sticking out of a pocket of the large and puffy pants, great sword, with a great guard in perforated sheets of brass, polished and shiny... "
Their manner was defiant.
Ciao
Maurizio

P.S.
Bravo now has the same meaning in Italian and English, used to express approval, especially of a performance.

[Bill Grandy]

[Bruno Giordan]

Bravi are described by Cesare Vecellio (XVI century, cousin of Titian) and Bonvesin de la Riva (XIV century, milanese chronichler).

Formerly known as gladiatori they became later identified as tajacantoni and bravi.

They were fighters for hire, eve looking for fight within a steccato (fence), they often were also pimps.

Tajacantoni means corner cutters in venetian, maybe it was a reference to their ability to jump from a side to the other of the fence or, according to the established traditions, they were famous for being waiting for people to assassinate at streets corners (cantoni).

In medieval times they were hired to represent rich people in judicial duels by non fighting classes.

Manzoni writes in the nineteenth century so he has also an anti-spanish slant, justifiable as their domination was poor and corrupt, but bravi/gladiatori had been existing for a long time.

Brescian people were popularly nicknamed tajacantoni by the venetians.

[Ruel A. Macaraeg]

From these descriptions, bravi seem to have been likely cosumers of the kind of manual that Marozzo and Di Grassi were publishing: Men who lived professionally as bodyguards, duellists, bandits, mercenaries, assassins, etc. would naturally be interested in improving their fencing skills.

In this, they seem unlike Landesknechts, yet similar to swordsmen in places like late Imperial China, which also produced commercially available sword manuals.

http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/html/articles/miaodao.html

Bruno, thank you for the etymologies -- they're fascinating and very revealing.