Arbalest vs. 15th century harness -- myArmoury.com

Michael Curl · Posted: Sat 14 Nov, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: Arbalest vs. 15th century harness

Are there any references of a arbalest piercing or not piercing a cuirass?

James Arlen Gillaspie · Industry Professional

Check Malcolm Vale, War and Chivalry.

Adam Bodorics · Industry Professional

What arbalest, what cuirass? Happy

Thin (<2mm) mild steel armour is quite easy to penetrate even at 200 pounds, while thicker heat treated high carbon steel can stop at least 800 pounds (possibly more, but we don't have any stronger arbalests now).
(I know that most wouldn't call 2mm thin, but for the front of a cuirass it IS thin. With proper thickness management you can have a wearably weighted cuirass with 8mm at front.)

William Knight · Posted: Sun 15 Nov, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject:

The Knight and the Blast Furnace by Allan Williams. If you can find a university library that has it.

Randall Moffett · Posted: Mon 16 Nov, 2009 7:53 am Post subject:

Have a care with Knight and the Blast Furnace and this section. His crossbow and longbow are such low draw weights they become of limited value. I'd look at the great crossbow and springalds by Jean Liebel.

RPM

William Knight · Posted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject:

True, his limited crossbow draw weights are a bit of a problem. The longbow draw weights less so, since the estimated protectiveness of plate armour is so much greater that the margin of error is huge.

-Wilhelm

Randall Moffett · Posted: Sun 22 Nov, 2009 6:58 am Post subject:

William,

I am not sure I agree. His testing for the longbow using a 70lb bow which is half the draw of the average Mary Rose Bows and almost 30lbs less than the weakest of them. Such values are totally useless in such testing. That 30-70lbs draw would make a difference. His crossbow estimate of 200lbs is just plan bad.... by the time plate is around I doubt this is even close to the average. My guess is once again likely a 35-50% increase in poundage just to get to the average.

I tend to think his armour estimates are 'on' but I'd use better sources for the bow. Liebel, who I mentioned earlier, actually took the time to make them up and get real numbers.

RPM

Martin Fischer · Posted: Sun 22 Nov, 2009 10:28 am Post subject:

Hi,

a few years ago in Germany the crossbowmaker Jens Sensfelder tested a crossbow of around 800 Ibs on a hardened cuirass of Peter Müller and the plate (C45 steel, thickness less than 2mm) withstand. You can find some high-speed recordings on his homepage:

http://www.plattnerwerkstatt.de/hp/index.php?...;Itemid=55

enoy & regards

Martin

Randall Moffett · Posted: Mon 23 Nov, 2009 6:48 am Post subject:

Martin,

Are you sure it was under 2mm? Last time this was posted I think they said it was 3-3.5mm.

RPM

James Arlen Gillaspie · Industry Professional

Vale's book, if memory serves, quotes several accounts of breastplates being subjected to testing from crossbows (15th century, I think), including the results of a large order of about 200 breastplates by some ecclesiastical figure (archbishop in Germany?). It's been awhile since I read it last.

Jonathan Atkin · Posted: Mon 23 Nov, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject:

Excuse my ignorance and side step hijacking of the thread. Saying that, how would a brigadine (sp?) Hold up to bolts and arrows? I believe these were still in use at this time yes? I've yet to see anyone here debate such an idea arrows, bolts, spears or even swords vs such a medium. What is the hive minds thoughts on this? Laughing Out Loud