[Jean Thibodeau]

Just ran across this site and although the Shocknive is made for police training the idea of real pain but no harm does bring in some interesting possibilities to add a real element of fear and avoidance of being hit or cut and some added realism to training.

I haven't looked at the entire site yet and my " google " search for " Shocknife " gave numerous results I haven't explored.

I have no idea if the product is restricted to police only or what the legality of it might be in different jurisdictions some of which might lump it in with cattle prods or tazers and might not be locally legal.

Even where legal for civilian use or ownership the maker might have a policy of selling these only for police or military training ?

certainly, I doubt if a sword version exists but can you imagine if there was an " Albion Shocksword " available ???

Oh! the links before I forget: http://www.shocknife.com/video.html
http://www.shocknife.com/

Note even this system might have it's own " artifacts " or flaws if one goes for a counting points sports or game set of rules and playing to the game winning tactics, but it might be a valuable addition to bouting and cooperative training learning the various plays.

( Edited: After a little exploration of the site it does seem available to civilians except in certain States in the U.S.A. but seems legal in numerous countries including Canada ...... an on line training course seems mandatory from the distributor/makers, and depending on the kit chosen, it is not " cheap " if one wants at least two shocknives !

Note that the discussion should be not just about this specific product but also about the idea in principle applied to HEMA or other sword/dagger training, at least potentially so. )

[Gavin Kisebach]

I looked into these a month or two ago and found them to be insanely expensive. I can only imagine the size of a department that could afford to buy these.

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

It seems to me that the fact that the shock happens upon any contact is a bit ill-suited to swords. I mean swords are not lightsabers either, you can pretty well be in contact with the edge and be perfectly fine. Even with your own edge as a matter of fact

Also, I'm not sure upping the pain level will be efficient at all, in my opinion it will only turn things into a macho match "I can take more pain than you" which is possibly the worst environment to be in. Nothing short of permanent damages will prevent that. If people don't want to understand that they shouldn't be taking hits, well perhaps swordsmanship is not the right pursuit for them...

Regards,

[Eric W. Norenberg]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Another thing to take into account that I had forgotten initially is that the electric shock might not get through the armour used for bouting (some level of protection is necessary in my opinion to bout with proper intensity). I'm almost sure a fencing mask defeats this device, for example.

For knife fencing it's ok (though I wonder if their knife is flexible enough not to be dangerous when thrusting to a t-shirt) because the knife will deal a far lower impact generally.

I wonder if a better solution to the problem wouldn't be to have the armour itself act upon impact? You'd have a "shock armour" that deals some voltage upon being struck... And it could be used with any simulator, without problems of halfswording and such. The drawback is that it restricts the valid target area.

In my opinion we'd be better postponing this debate until we have a reasonable off-the-shelf bouting equipment for HEMA... That would be a prerequisite for such a tool.

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Gabriele A. Pini]

If the scope of this idea is a more realistic training perhaps a sort of bodyglove that, upon impact, transmit a current... it can be worn over an armor, giving an healthy respect of possible contacts with the sword.

But it will need to be effective only on contact with the blade, otherwise it will deny every opportunity of wrestling, and the current couldn't be localized as in the training knife...

Or (more sci-fi) sections of bodyglove that block the injured arm or leg...

[Jon Wolfe]

I don't feel that the Shocknife would be a proper training implement for HEMA, not at least until the company that makes it produces one that better resembles an historical Medieval European dagger. Its made to look and feel in the hand like a modern knife, therefore more often used in a forward grip, not reverse like what the historical manuals depict, and would seem to promote more of a cutting instead of thrusting oriented fight, again, unlike what the historical manuals depict. To tie back into the issue of the more forward grip intended design, I don't care for how the Shocknife appears to be activated; the button that needs to be depressed is located were the index finger would be in a forward grip, and even though the Shocknife is shown being used in a reverse grip, I think that it would be uncomfortable after a few minutes since one would have to use their little finger to depress the button that activates it. The biggest issue I have with the Shocknife is that it would promote sniping, and not closing the distance to finish the fight, taser tag, if you will. Also, since the device was designed with law enforcement in mind, and one of the individuals in the videos on the Shocknife website even made this point, the trainers want the law enforcement officers to not stay in distance of the knifeman but, instead, back off and draw their service pistol. I'm sure that the Dog Brothers endorsement goes to helping the Shocknife's credibility, but the majority of them don't train in HEMA, they train in Eastern styles of knife fighting, and the dynamics are different in the emphasis that is placed on cutting as opposed to the thrusting in the dolchfechten. Not to mention may of the historical Medieval European daggers did have edge or at least a sharpened edge, and also had the length, to were they could be used for traping and joint locking techniques, the Shocknife's blade isn't long enough to facilitate such techniques, not to mention the risk of accidentally shocking one's own hand. I think proper recognition of the danger presented by the dagger and not the fear of being shock is what should be instructed. Personally, I think the Shocknife is rather gimicky.

I must say that I have never handled a Shocknife, I have only used stiff plastic training daggers in my training, so these are only my initial impressions of the Shocknife, and I would gladly post an addendum to this posting if I ever had to opportunity to handle a Shocknife. But, for right now, I don't think that the Shocknife is appropriate for a HEMA practioners needs.

[Gabriele A. Pini]

[E Stafford]

. Okk, last time I checked, the first rule of a knife FIGHT is run, run away. The second rule is you WILL get cut. The only question you have to answer at that point is where and how bad.

A knife attack is different. If I'm going at someone with a knife, they aren't going to see it until the last possible second, which should be the same time they are looking at the knife somewhere it shouldn't be. At that point, you have to do several things. Step one: get me off you. Not so hard, I'm five eight, 160. Second, dissuade me from coming back. Step three, neutralize the threat. Note steps two and three will probably be the same thing.

I don't see the point with this. Electricity will convulse your muscles; that's why tasers work they way they do. As long as contact is maintained, the person won't be able to move. That's different than a knife attack. It goes in, comes out, you go into shock. The knife wielder rinses, lathers, and repeats. It will build a pain diversion, and teach you to focus through it, but with the electric shock, it shouldn't matter. I'd have to see it working.

[Jon Wolfe]

[Jean Thibodeau]

Well the shockknife when I first heard of it seemed like an useful training tool but it does seem better suited to modern style selfdefence training applications rather than period dagger fighting as some posts have brought up some problems like handling the blade to perform some of the blocking techniques used in period dagger fighting: Getting a shock then is counter productive to say the least.

The shockknife is this " Topic's " subject matter but mostly as a concept of using some sort of chock to let one know that a cut or stab would have made contact and to help when training to be motivated to avoid being hit/cut.

The wider question is how the idea could be applied to increase the realism of training and take some of the subjectivity involved in deciding who won an exchange.

The only point of using some negative feedback is not to cause excessive paint or great fear but to make being prudent in the fight something less easily forgotten.

Modern selfdefence training applications are not really relevant to the goal of practising period weapon arts although some indirect overlap of usefulness can occur: That subject would be for a different Topic on a different Forum.

Other training aids might be useful like maybe a training sword/knife/bladed polearm that would leave a clear mark on the training clothes ? I think this idea has been used using chalk or charcoal but are messy and after many exchanges one would have the marks accumulating and no longer useful until cleaned.

One idea here would be some sort of rapidly fading " invisible ink " so that after a few minutes after a bout one would start off clean again as the product would evaporate without leaving any stains.

Other ideas or a combination of ideas might work better ? Oh, a suit with sensors with the marking being seen on a computer display that could record hits and give some quantitative evaluation of effect as well as time code a succession of hits ! In other words more of a software solution where one could study the bout after and during the bout.

[Gabriele A. Pini]

Same as they do in modern fencing, with the lights for touch.
The problem in this discussion is choose exactly what do you need for the training: keeping a score of the points (like you do in fencing or with the ink) or instill a real fear of the blade (like the Shocknife)?

A real good thing would be if there is the possibility for the computer to discern the force, direction and point of impact of the hits, so that you can see if a strike was really deadly or only a graze. I've see something of the like in a (astorical and a scientific) programm of Natgeo...