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E Stafford
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 Posted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 1:48 am Post subject: Langes messer |
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I have a question: what was the German Langes Messer? It looks like a falchion, but I'm not sure. Thanks.
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 2:01 am Post subject: |
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The Langes Messer was much longer, being a true two-handed weapon. The blade had more of a dramatic crescent curve like that of a shamshir. Other than that, the grip, tang, cross were all very similar to the Grosse Messer.
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com
"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Peter Rieder
Location: Munich Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 3:26 am Post subject: |
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As far as I know from books, the interwebs and my instructors, the terms "Langes Messer" (long knife) and "Grosses Messer" (big knife) are used interchangeably, they usually mean the same one-handed sword with either one edge or one and a half (i.e. a short, sharpened false edge). The really long, two-handed variant is commonly called "Kriegsmesser" (war knife).
Cheers, Peter
A loaf that tries to twist its own fate is not a loaf at all but is, in fact, a pretzel.
Member of Ochs
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Mick Czerep
Location: Poland Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 3:45 am Post subject: |
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I agree with the above. There's no knowing if our ancestors used clearly-defined terms for knifre-like weapons, but there's a thing. Usually 'langes' means the handle can accomodate two hands. No more, no less. Kriegsmesser is the name I'd associate with the true two-hand weapons of 1490+
Sordes ocurrit
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James Head
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| Posted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 5:19 am Post subject: |
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The difference between the Messer and Falchion is mostly related to the handle construction. A Falchion's handle is built in the same way as other swords. A Messer's handle consists of a tang sandwiched between two slabs of wood and riveted together, just like a modern steak knife handle. The other big idfference was their intended use: A Falchion was a chopping blade manufactured for war. A Messer was a large, machette-like knife that was employed by all levels of society as a tool but was easily adapted to self defense.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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A.A. Boskaljon
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Mick Czerep wrote: | | I agree with the above. There's no knowing if our ancestors used clearly-defined terms for knifre-like weapons, but there's a thing. Usually 'langes' means the handle can accomodate two hands. No more, no less. Kriegsmesser is the name I'd associate with the true two-hand weapons of 1490+ |
Same here, but there still are a lot of folks who use different names. Nobody is right in this point I think.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 06 Oct, 2009 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Most of the native German speakers I know use the term "langes messer" to describe the "hand and a half" version, but as mentioned above, the terminology wasn't very specific in period. I'm not aware of the term "grosse messer" being used as a technical term in any period sources (though that doesn't mean it wasn't, I've just only heard modern people use the term).
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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E Stafford
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Sun 18 Oct, 2009 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Not to sound like an @ss...
They are using Langes Messers.
Look at the hilts, they are longer the grip of the hand.
Cheers,
David
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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E Stafford
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| Posted: Sun 18 Oct, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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couldn't really see the handles, actually. I thought they were falchion.
So, a messer has more to do with the grip than it does the blade. Interesting. Thanks.
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Mon 19 Oct, 2009 12:25 am Post subject: |
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It's a fine line. Also considered sometimes is the method of construction for the blade.
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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G. Bezanson
Location: Amherst, Nova Scotia, Canada Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| James Head wrote: | | The difference between the Messer and Falchion is mostly related to the handle construction. A Falchion's handle is built in the same way as other swords. A Messer's handle consists of a tang sandwiched between two slabs of wood and riveted together, just like a modern steak knife handle. The other big idfference was their intended use: A Falchion was a chopping blade manufactured for war. A Messer was a large, machette-like knife that was employed by all levels of society as a tool but was easily adapted to self defense. |
I agree on the bit about handle construction, but looking at the cross guard, it looks more as if it was intended as a weapon, rather than just a tool which could fill the role in a pinch. A crossguard like that would not help it's usage as a tool, and may even get in the way.
Of course, it is possible that they were much like a seax in that they were made and used both as tools and weapons. It's also possible that the grosse messer was just a variant of a falchion.
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This is a standard topic