[Dan Dickinson]

It is common perception that Islamic swords were curved. However, as many have pointed out, most islamic swords up until the introduction of the steppe saber were straight. Most examples of straight islamic swords I have seen have canted tangs for a saber-like grip.
However, I had seen a drawing of a cruciform type hilt in David Nicolle's books that was recovered from a shipwreck and that i found quite attractive. i was unsure however, what type of blade it would have gone with.

Then in the book Crusades illustrated by igor Dzys, I saw what appeared to be a recreation of that hilt married to a european-style double edged blade with central fuller. Since I hadn't really seen anything similar, I suspected that it might not be an accurate reconstruction (based on the fact that there are several blatant inaccuracies in that work).

However, today I was flipping through Ewart Oakeshott's A Knight in Battle and saw that he had drawn an extremly similar sword, but instead of just the shipwreck find hilt, it was a drawing of a complete sword from the collection of Prof. Storm Rice.
Tha blade appears to be most like a type XIII.

Does anyone have any more information on that particular (or similar) weapon(s)?
The islamic swords from the arn films had very similar blades, but with canted hilts.

Maybe Peter has some information that would be pertinent. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dan

[Adam Rose]

While there are definitely some examples of straight bladed swords with canted hilts (e.g some Sassanid cavalry swords), those examples from the film you posted look like they are based on some of the straight swords attributed to early Muslim figures in the Topkapi, and my understanding is that those are probably old blades that were re-mounted in "modern" fashion during the 16th century.

I've attached another example, but it's missing the (organic?) grip and maybe a pommel cap.

[Dan Dickinson]

Thanks Adam, I think I had seen that one before (or at least one very similar) but had forgotten about it. I am particularly interested in specimens with a central fuller. That's interesting about the rehilting...I had wondered if that might be the case. However, aren't there examples of straight bladed weapons with canted tangs (palashes though single edged come to mind ). Might some have been made that way originally for a similar purpose?
Thanks,
Dan

[Adam Rose]

Well, the earlier (pre-Islamic) Sassanid swords are double edged, but not fullered as far as I know. I found a good example of the overall shape, but you can't see the blade (rusted in, I think): http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highligh...sword.aspx

[Lukasz Papaj]

How about swords from Granada Sultanate like one owned by Abu 'abd-Allah Muhammad XII (more commonly known as Boabdil) Straight blades with quite unique hilts, end of XV c. (pre fall of Granada)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Boabdilsword.JPG

[Kjell Magnusson]

Hermann Historica had a sword for sale a while ago which may be of interest here.

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm56...at56_p.txt

[Dan Dickinson]

[Scott Kowalski]

Dan,
I know that this will probably not be of much help but I thought I would chime in anyway. I remember reading or hearing somewhere that in the 9th and 10th centuries, and possibly earlier and/or later, Islamic warriors prized blades of "Frankish" make that they then hilted to their tastes. This is a possible explanation for this.

Does this sound familiar to anyone else? Or are the voices in my head really getting that loud?

Scott

[Paul Hansen]

Interesting topic and nice pictures are being shown here. I, too, had the apparently wrong idea that the straight swords as found in the Topkapi museum were what Arabic swords looked like in the middle ages.

What I find interesting though, is how much these swords look like Hunnish swords of the 4th-5th century. Possibly because they both have Sassanid influences?

[Danny Grigg]

Here are 2 more swords:

http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetai...=159270811
http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetai...=159516681

Hisham Gaballa has posted some Mamluk / Islamic / Arabic straight swords in the past.
Check out the post below:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight=

Danny

[Dan Dickinson]

Thanks Danny, that second one you posted is remarkably similar in pommel shape and general hilt form to the one from HH.
Keep them coming guys!
Thanks,
Dan

[Michael Harley]

Another Hermann-Historica offering, ca.13th.-14th.C. Mameluk 955mm is all the information I have on it.
Cheers.

[Danny Grigg]

Michael, here's a link to the sword you posted with information:

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1299245

Danny

[Dan Dickinson]

I'm pretty sure that's the same one as the first Sotheby's offering, but with the plexiglass grip removed.
Thanks for the better photos,
Dan

[Dan Dickinson]

I'm hoping that a few more pairs of eyes can help me out. What do you guys see for the blade section of the tip on the first HH example? Does it have a fuler that runs until about 1" before the tip, or does the fuller end about 6" from the tip and transition into hexagonal section?
I've look at it many times, but can't quite seem to reach a difinitive conclusion.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dan

[Luka Borscak]

I think the fuller ends about 6" before the tip and than transitions to hexagonal. I'm quite sure actually.

[Shahril Dzulkifli]

These type of swords are shown in this illustration of 2 Mamluk soldiers during the Battle of Marj al-Saffar by the late Angus McBride.

[Danny Grigg]

See attached, from the book "Al-Andalus The Art of Islamic Spain" published by the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

Danny

[Pedro Paulo Gaião]

[Pedro Paulo Gaião]

Ok, I'm reviving the post ...

It seems that, before West developed what Oakeshott and others called the "knightly sword", all the regions somewhat connected to the Roman Empire or close to it had the general idea of a Roman Spatha (btw, that's how "viking swords" were called in Catholic Europe during 8th century and so). That also applies to Arabia, Aegypto, Germania etc

https://www.facebook.com/1495309404114147/posts/ancient-roman-spatha-long-sword-iron-3rd-4th-century-ad-found-in-ratari-village-/2836555973322810/

This pair of 3rd-4th century spathae (78,1cm blade) found in nowadays Serbia put made in an active Roman city of the time, shows a cut-oriented sword that arguably just lacks the fuller we see in Medieval Swords, the earliest I could remember dates from this 6th century Frankish example, with poorly conserved blade:

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/33513

The Roman Spathae shown doesn't look much different from the lenticular blades shown here. If we accept the idea that fullers were a Western European invention, then it makes sense for why swords from Levant, Egypt and Arabia were generally not using them until we see some examples of fullered swords, the earliest I can remember was found in Spain during the Islamic Period (which for my is just a re-hilted "viking" sword into a islamic styled hilt):


A discussion about it with other examples:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/444864076083475/permalink/1338755490027658/

I have accepted the theory, so often repeated, that sabers were introduced in Muslim World through the Turks (which also either introduced or gave more popularity to sabers in Byzantine Empire). Even though, as these examples show, they didn't supplanted straight swords immediately or at all.

It seens the Muslims were somewhat conservative in the shape of their blades, cut-oriented, being either fullered or un-fullered lenticular blades, but I have seen here and elsewhere many examples of large blades, by far surpassing the typical wideness of viking swords (mostly 6 cm at base, but we sometimes see 5,7 to 5,9cm, and rarely 5,4; 5,6 and even 5cm wide blades.

Some Iberian-Christian swords have Andalusian influences as well, like the Sword of Saint Ferdinand or Sword of Alfonso X, a 13th century one handed sword with wide blade and short guard (BL 8,8 cm; W. 7,3cm):
https://www.facebook.com/groups/213194419602681/permalink/285043179084471/

Many crossguards also resemble this short (65cm blade) but wide 10th-11th eastern proto-longsword in an auction, whose dimmensions I would like to know better.

https://sword-site.com/thread/922/hander-byzantine-sword?fbclid=IwAR3fl740v1eCJhE57FbcoUmuVdvtuoUSHsWIZf4rKOegzPoMmqKkertTXEk

These hilts were found in places like Romania, Bulgaria and Ukraine or Russia, so it seens the hilting in Byzantine and Muslim worlds were not so different at all.

Extra: interesting thread with andalusian swords: https://twitter.com/Ballandalus/status/1135308588707131393