[Michael Curl]

Does anyone know anything about it besides for people doing backflips with aluminum jians?

I can't find any data on specs of historic jians or on how it was used in battle (unless they actually did cartwheel around the battlefield)

[Nicholas Allan Wilson]

Check this out:

http://www.grtc.org/

The head instructor (?), Scott M. Rodell, is always on Sword Forum too. If you are really interested I think he would be a good place to start (in my opinion).

From what I have seen, Chinese Swordsmanship looks just as effective as any other style out there.

[Nicholas Allan Wilson]

http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/html/

I don't know of the quality.

[Michael Curl]

thank you,

And I"m not saying it isn't, but I doubt that the modern form is, it looks as worthless to me as foil.

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Nicholas Allan Wilson]

well, it depends on how you would use the techniques and the weapon. When you have a system and take it out of context then it very well may appear to be worthless. For example, a Jian would probably not work well against plate armour. But against someone who is not heavily armoured the Jian might perform exceptionally well.

There is no such thing as a perfect style or system. What really counts is the practitioner, his level of training and his understanding of his chosen art. If you are looking for the perfect system then I fear you will never find it. Finding the perfect system for yourself is a different matter, however.

[Nicholas Allan Wilson]

http://www.grtc.org/video-clips/rediscovering...ong-sword/

As you can see there are different swords out there other than the Jian or Dao. The Dadao (not featured in vid) is very interesting.

[Jean Thibodeau]

I don't think we are disputing that the Chinese forms of swordsmanship where effective but the stuff seen in films might have some distant resemblance to the real thing but is not the real thing.

I wouldn't judge the effectiveness of longsword or rapier based on what we see in movies or even what we see in modern Olympic fencing: This doesn't mean that modern fencing isn't skilled it just is very far from a martial art that you could use to keep you alive in a period duel to the death ! It's a modern sport optimized to winning points that in a real fight would get you killed a fraction of a second after you " theoretically " won by touching first by 1/100 of a second.

What I think Michael is questioning are the exaggerated acrobatics and the very wiggly / waggly swords used " theatrically " as opposed to real fighting jians that are much more stiff and heavy. ( Not an expert on the subject of jians ! ).

From what I've read here before, on this site, a lot of jian work can compare and resemble rapier or one handed sword work.

[Nicholas Allan Wilson]

[Jean Thibodeau]

Nicholas;

Yes I was assuming that his impressions where/are at least influenced by the more flamboyant Chinese films but he didn't specifically mention these in his question. Maybe the " modern " Shaolin style as shown in public performances which are more circus ( very skilled circus ) performances ? But then again I'm just guessing again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Kung_Fu

From the above link, Contemporary training at the Shaolin Temple:

[Nicholas Allan Wilson]

And here is another link:

http://www.chinese-swords-guide.com/

The Chinese swordsmanship community is a larger than I realized!

[Nicholas Allan Wilson]

[Elling Polden]

During some fast and furious free play, I had a small epiphany regarding Kung fu fencing; A lot of the very showy and seemingly illogical techniques in Kung Fu look like the improviced, wildly pragmatic moves that you end up doing when sparring.
In this case, my guess is that they started out with lots of sparring experience, and made a system out of what they actually DID when fighting each other, rather than building perfect techinques from basics principles...

[Nat Lamb]

[Michael Curl]

Glad to see you understand me jean!!!


Correct, I am not saying that chinese martial arts are not (or were not) effective, however all the footage I can find (youtube...sigh) doesn't seem useful. I know that one should compare, but I find it hard to believe that backflips and spins are that useful in combat, you don't see it in the west, and you don't see it in eastern styles that haven't become about show (the older katana styles). I was simply wondering if anyone had links or information on more actually practical means of using a jian (which fascinates me as it seems so similar to a european sword)

[Nicholas Allan Wilson]

[Nicholas Allan Wilson]

[Simon E.]

The sense I get from reading material on GRTC and from Scott Rodell's posts is that many modern day Chinese Swordsmanship forms are concerned with performance alone... that flash back flippy stuff you most often see on youtube. There has, however, been a recent effort (something along the lines of WMA reconstruction) in putting forms in the context of their historical use. The advantage there is that Chinese swordsmanship will often have a living tradition in the form... figuring out how a movement is to be applied in a combat situation is where the work is involved. Like others have mentioned, grtc.org is a good place to start investigation. The recently released a short video describing the 5 elements of Chinese Swordsmanship here: http://vimeo.com/4641270.

I don't practice any swordsmanship ...my interest is mainly in making action comic illustrations that don't rely on generic looking martial arts fighting. My investigations brought me to Scott Rodell's work, like his book on Yang Family Jian: http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Swordsmanship-F...=pd_sim_b_. His book also cites another book on Northern Shaolin sword by Dr. Yang: http://www.amazon.com/Northern-Shaolin-Sword-...B001U1XFXW. You might want to take a look into his work.

Be aware that Medieval and Renaissance European arts also had techniques intended for show. Check out this swordforum thread on epee jumping: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t...apier+jump. The modern focus on the pragmatic aspects of WMA seems to stem from a desire to dispel the myth of the slow and clumsy knight.

[Bennison N]

Awesome... Finally a myArmoury subject I can add something useful to! Haha!

The "modern" wushu jian forms are the equivalent of gymnastic tumbling. The swords used are very light and flop around like that for show ONLY. Often, what they perform are real Jianshu (the romanisation of the chinese characters for "sword technique") forms, but sped up and over-acted. I suggest you google the "China Games".

In regards to working against armour, in battle Chinese warriors used thicker, stronger swords for this purpose, or for the last dynasties, they used the dao. For both the Jian and Dao there are numerous types. The thinner jian types you see on wu xia films are the scholarly type, worn for duelling and fashion, like rapiers and smallswords were. Hence the reason you often find jian that are so heavily decorated it seems a shame to hit something with them.

For technique, the first place to start will always be the Wudang Mountain Temples. These Taoist priests developed swordsmanship to such a degree, most of us will find the feats attributed to them unbelievable. As with almost all Chinese Martial Arts, the main training style there is choreographed forms. This is because the theory is that by repeating the forms an infinite number of times, your body will automatically react in the movements of the form. Strength exercises are of near, or equal importance. I find personally that use of the tendons, rather than muscles to generate power is ideal for jianshu. I would definitely recommend Wudang over Shaolin for Chinese sword techniques...

To show the reverence with which Chinese people regard the Jian, the saying is as follows:
"The Dao is the marshall of weapons" (Probably due to the dao being adopted as standard arm of the army in earlier times)
"The Jian is the Gentleman of weapons"
And the list goes on... Interesting perhaps for you weapons buffs is that the Spear is known as the KING of weapons.

Chinese swordsmanship is awesome. I used to be a Kendoka for a number of years, but quickly switched once finding a good teacher of Jianshu. I feel there is more room for self-expression. Plus, by this stage in my training, if I pick up any sword I start to use it with jianshu or daofa.

This is one subject I actually know, so ask me whatever you need to know and I'll do my best...

[Michael Curl]

Tonight when I have some free time I will study the links,


Bennison, what kind of armor did the chinese use during imperial period? I know its a big area but the only answer I get is brigandine and lamellar and I can't find any discussion about its evolution.