[Gavin Kisebach]

Hello everybody,

I don't know a lot about messers, or messer fighting, but they are becoming increasingly interesting to me as I watch demonstrations on YouTube. One thing that makes me cringe time and time again is the seemingly reckless use on edge-to-edge blocks that seem to be universally recommended by the various manuals.

Here's a video chock full of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHEs2m0IXAk

I've always subscribed to the notion that edge-to edge blocking is extremely destructive not only to the edge of the blade, but can also lead to catastrophic blade failure by introducing stress fractures that would not be as likely in flat blocking.

Is there something I don't know about the messer that negates this problem? my first guess would be that a backsword is generally more stout than the lenticular blades that I am most familiar with, but that sounds like a gross oversimplification....

[Dustin R. Reagan]

[David Sutton]

This is something that I've wondered about too.

I'm not to familiar with the messer, having never handled one or even seen one close up. Something I've speculated on is that they possibly had an extended portion of unsharpened blade (in a similar manner to cavalry sabres) in order to allow a parry with the edge of the strong?

The other possibility is that people are simply misinterpreting fechtbuch illustrations. Taking an image which is actually showing edge on flat to be edge to edge.

[Cory Winslow]

Hey Guys,

I'm glad to see that our video has inspired some discussion!

[Hugh Knight]

Hello,

Cory is right that some masters specifically tell us to block with the edge, and not just the one he mentioned; for example, Silver is quite clear about it. He said: “...ward his blow with the edge of your sword.” (Brief Instructions fol. 24r). You can’t really get much more plain than that.. And others show it to us, as in this plate from Talhoffer 1467:
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/0002/bsb00020451/...l?seite=41
What you see there is a Mordschlag (Talhoffer calls it a Tunrschlag) or pommel strike--a power strike--being blocked with the edge of the other guy's sword (if he tried to block with the flat his sword would break)--edge on edge.

In fact, the flat is a *bad* choice for displacement. Think about it: If you want to break a board with your hand, do you chop into the edge of the board or into the flat? Obviously you chop into the flat of the board--why? Because it's easier to break it that way. Swords are no different: If you block with the flat your blade will break more easily, especially in a powerful displacement such as that shown in the Talhoffer example above. Yes, you may get your edge nicked, but who cares? You normally block with the strong and cut with the weak anyway, so the nick shouldn't effect your ability to cut.

Not only that, but the way your wrist is connected makes edge displacement better. Try this: Stand with your sword in your hand, blade held vertical. Now have a friend push agaisnt the blade, first from the side, next from the edge. You will discover your defense is *much* stronger in the direction aligned with your edge.

Moreover, we know swords often got hacked up; read this quote from a fifteenth-century chronicle: "...and after the battle his sword was all but ruined. The beautifully gilded hilt had been bent and nearly wrenched free and the blade all notched and toothed like a saw" (Gutierre Diaz de Gamez, The Unconquered Knight: A Chronicle of the Deeds of Don Pero Nino, tr. John Evans, In Parenthesis Publications, 2000, p.16)

That's not to say *all* displacements are done with the edge; Talhoffer shows messer blocks done with what he calls a "turned-around hand", but in these cases the hand is turned to cock it for the next action, not to spare the edge.

[Andrew Shultz]

Not that I subscribe to the "don't parry with the edge" newsletter, but I note that "edge is above" could mean that the edge is straight up with a blow usually coming down slightly off straight (coming both down and out at you), which would lead to a parry not directly on the edge, but edge/flatish. Which is a parry that I see a lot in our longsword - not edge whacks edge, but edge nuzzles edge a bit.

Or of course edge is above could mean meet his edge at a square angle. Hard to say.

[Gavin Kisebach]

Hugh,

Respectfully, I don't think that a wooden board is a comparable medium to steel in the context of shock absorption. Beyond the materials themselves, the board is held in such a way as to restrict movement; in contrast the free end of a sword can vibrate and absorb shock.

That's not to say that the flat is necessarily better, only that I don't think board breaking is a workable comparison.

[edit] that is to say that the sword redirects the energy by vibration, not that it absorbs the energy per se

[Robert Subiaga Jr.]

I continue to be amused by arguments about whether the edge or flat or both is good for parrying or in which orientation a blade is stronger.

No, not because I have any opinion on the matter. (Though I do.) But because both sides continually use quotes from the fechtbuchs to argue their case.

This is not a matter of opinion. Even opinions of "masters." It is an empirical question.

And "nothing ruins a good hypothesis like an experiment."

Set up a blade on an adjustable spring loaded mechanism swinging it horizontally.

Clamp a blade perpendicular to it.

Strike edge on at progressively larger various force loads (and preferably with a new, identical target blade) each time until you get breakage.

Repeat with an identical target blade(s) oriented toward the flat.

Compare quantitative results.

Some matters are really that simple.

[Hugh Knight]

[Gavin Kisebach]

[David E. Farrell]

Gavin, as you have noticed - the edge vs flat parry thing can get hairy fast. I won't get into the physics issues either (often people use incorrect mechanics in the debate)...

I do want to offer a response though:

Now, I don't study messer - but I have been in some seminars and discussions on bolognese sidesword (another single handed sword often used in unarmoured combat). Apparently there too, the masters are quite explicit about using the edge and when to do so. It tears up blades, no doubt. Break them? no so much. But the temper and geometry of a sharp and a blunt trainer are *usually* quite different.

And AFAIK, the messer is generally a rather stout weapon in comparison to the sidesword the Bolognese masters were thinking of when they wrote.

Now why then is it done? Or more correctly, why isn't it actually that big a deal?

1) It is not actually all that easy to break a steel blade that is tempered properly regardless of how it is loaded. Of course, you find evidence that it happened, because crap happens.

2) A blade is replaceable, your body is not. Yes, it's expensive. Guess what - you probably value your life more. Bet they did too.

3) Even a slight motion or angle change can remove or reduce the damage a good deal (i.e. taking it from hard edge on edge static parry to glancing flat/edge to edge) - your eye may not see the difference unless the action is slowed down dramatically.

unfortunately, I am not sure how much more there is actually to say on the matter.

[David Teague]

Hello All,

Messer is quite cool, but unlike Cory (who can do his own translations) I must work from other peoples translations.

Messer had a number of blocking techniques that include the edge and the flat. Flat parries are done with the thumb grip and a water shedding action in a movement that's part of the Bogen. From the Bogen flow all sorts of disarms, throws and killing actions.

But many of Messer's counters flow from you counterattacking the flat of the incoming blade.

Two of my students doing a simple bogen (note the flat of the blade parry) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnbRIQIDVh0

Myself and a student doing the messer zornhau (I strike his flat with my edge in defense and flip my messer over to thrust [zornhau], he displaces my point to his left, I start the second winding as a feint and then drop my point to strike him in right temple with a cross stroke, he stays bound to my blade to counter thrust to my chest and I finish by using my off hand to displace his blade and take his neck) Messer is Fun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3SDb2InBRY

[Hugh Knight]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Hugh Knight]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Hugh Knight]

[Ragnar A. Olsen]

[Hugh Knight]